TSR-2 (Cancelled Project)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: TSR-2 (Cancelled Project)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Little J wrote: Have to wonder what might have been had Mountbatten not stuck his nose in with the Aussies..
Imagine if someone else had been sent to India?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
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Re: TSR-2 (Cancelled Project)

Post by SW1 »

If you have an interest in the TSR-2 program this is great overview of the program

https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documents/ ... dsight.pdf

Its also a good example the chronicals something that continues to this day how the military write “requirements” to ensure they get what they first thought off. Not necessarily what is required to do the job.

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Re: TSR-2 (Cancelled Project)

Post by Digger22 »

Projects like TSR2, only become a waste of money if we don't see it through or the project design is flawed. If it wasn't for Ronnie R, the Rockwell B1 would have been canned forever, and I'm convinced the resurrection of what would become the Lancer, convinced Maggie to look at restarting TSR2. As to the Lancer, an aircraft who's role had been questioned leading to cancellation, has become a superb asset, and will serve until it's replaced in 2030 something, by the B21.

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Re: TSR-2 (Cancelled Project)

Post by SKB »

TSR-2 Documentary

Duration: 55 minutes

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Re: TSR-2 (Cancelled Project)

Post by SD67 »

Little J wrote: 27 Sep 2018, 15:06
Lord Jim wrote:Whilst the investment of funds was huge for the TSR-2, it was way ahead of anything else either in service or in development at the time. IF we had been more positive in the management of the programme without the mixed signals form Government it could have been a major success, both for the RAF and for exports.
Have to wonder what might have been had Mountbatten not stuck his nose in with the Aussies...
I think with the Aussies there were other factors at play. Australia was contemplating its own nuclear weapons program In the early 60s - TSR2 was going to be the delivery vehicle. The Americans weren’t too keen and so made them a better offer - well put you inside the umbrella via the Joint Defence Facilities (Pine Gap). This was around the time of the pullback from east of Suez and the domino theory in South East Asia - there’s no way Britain could compete with US protection.

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Re: TSR-2 (Cancelled Project)

Post by mrclark303 »

I happen to have a great interest in TSR2 and the programme that grew up around it, I've read just about every book on the subject over the last 35 years.

Unfortunately, the decision I've come to is that in reality, it's a project that should never have been started. It was simply beyond the capacity of the Mod to fund in the numbers needed and operation of the type in squadron service would have been 'ferociously' expensive.

Possibly it should have been cancelled at an early stage and a developed, stretched Buccaneer with reheated Speys taken it's place.

It would have meant lowering our sights in terms of overall capability, but It would have been affordable, capable and exportable!

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Re: TSR-2 (Cancelled Project)

Post by swoop »

mrclark303 wrote: 08 Sep 2022, 14:26Unfortunately, the decision I've come to is that in reality, it's a project that should never have been started. It was simply beyond the capacity of the Mod to fund in the numbers needed and operation of the type in squadron service would have been 'ferociously' expensive.
I have to disagree. The capability to build the aircraft was demonstrated.
The "problem" was British bureaucracy. Far too many departments and ministries were involved and then, far too many additions and variations to the capabilities of the project as it progressed.

The engineers did an outstanding job.
The politicians and "ministries" should have been put against the wall and shot.
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Re: TSR-2 (Cancelled Project)

Post by SD67 »

According to public source material
- Only flew supersonic once
- Major problems with landing gear
- Terrain following radar immature, may have been shaken to bits by low level flight
- Engines would have been a maintenance nightmare
- Mission computer verging on obsolete

Added to the general design limitations
- lack of swing wings (how would those tiny wings have performed at altitude?)
- lack of turbofans
- limited payload relative to cost

TSR2 seems to be a very high risk way of bombing Moscow, most likely a one way ticket, in which case you may as well send a missile.
I think what we really needed was UKFG - swing wings, turbofans, multi role capability- TSR2 was a dead end

now I'll go and hide

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Re: TSR-2 (Cancelled Project)

Post by SW1 »

This is gd reference on all things TSR2. Covers everything from requirement setting and the how’s that can be “shaped” to those that designed it and the challenges of the politics.

https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documents/ ... dsight.pdf

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Re: TSR-2 (Cancelled Project)

Post by mrclark303 »

SD67 wrote: 09 Sep 2022, 08:36 According to public source material
- Only flew supersonic once
- Major problems with landing gear
- Terrain following radar immature, may have been shaken to bits by low level flight
- Engines would have been a maintenance nightmare
- Mission computer verging on obsolete

Added to the general design limitations
- lack of swing wings (how would those tiny wings have performed at altitude?)
- lack of turbofans
- limited payload relative to cost

TSR2 seems to be a very high risk way of bombing Moscow, most likely a one way ticket, in which case you may as well send a missile.
I think what we really needed was UKFG - swing wings, turbofans, multi role capability- TSR2 was a dead end

now I'll go and hide
Too late, the baying mob with pitchforks and burning torches is already coming down your street!

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Re: TSR-2 (Cancelled Project)

Post by mrclark303 »

swoop wrote: 09 Sep 2022, 05:20
mrclark303 wrote: 08 Sep 2022, 14:26Unfortunately, the decision I've come to is that in reality, it's a project that should never have been started. It was simply beyond the capacity of the Mod to fund in the numbers needed and operation of the type in squadron service would have been 'ferociously' expensive.
I have to disagree. The capability to build the aircraft was demonstrated.
The "problem" was British bureaucracy. Far too many departments and ministries were involved and then, far too many additions and variations to the capabilities of the project as it progressed.

The engineers did an outstanding job.
The politicians and "ministries" should have been put against the wall and shot.
If I vote with my heart, I fully agree, but my rather exhaustive decades of research on every aspect of the TSR2 unfortunately points in another direction...

To put it quite simply, it would have been beyond the ability of the RAF to operate in the numbers needed.

The huge expense of the aircraft ment that the RAF would have struggled to procure more than 100 at best, coupled with eye watering operating costs, would have had a dire effect on other projects. Possibly having to order US air raft off the shelf to fill the squadrons, no Jaguar or Harrier, possibly a buy of A7's instead to fill the tactical strike role??

It would have been a nightmare for cash strapped Britain...

Reliability of the first generation transistor avionics was a real concern, BAC had major reservations about the forthcoming avions trials of XR221.

The TF Radar had been flying on a trials Buccaneer with success, but operating the whole sophisticated avionics package, including the INS, sideways looking radar etc on TSR2, under operational trials conditions was going to be a 'serious issue'. I am certainly not knocking the aircraft or designers, it's just the avionics required by the aircraft wouldn't exist until the late 1960's, early 1970's, so BAC had to work with what was available in 1962 when the design was frozen.

It was also discovered that a major redesign of the rear fuselage was required, along with changing some of the alloys used, this would have meant an expensive pause in production and an additional trial programme after the pre production batch and before production aircraft, as work took place.

Again, I'm not knocking TSR2, it was (and is) an absolutely beautiful aircraft and a fantastic effort of British engineering.......

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Re: TSR-2 (Cancelled Project)

Post by Caribbean »

mrclark303 wrote: 09 Sep 2022, 17:40 Too late, the baying mob with pitchforks and burning torches is already coming down your street!
They won't rest until he's been completely forked
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Re: TSR-2 (Cancelled Project)

Post by swoop »

SD67 wrote: 09 Sep 2022, 08:36 According to public source material
- Only flew supersonic once (1)
- Major problems with landing gear (2)
- Terrain following radar immature, may have been shaken to bits by low level flight (3)
- Engines would have been a maintenance nightmare (4)
- Mission computer verging on obsolete (5)

Added to the general design limitations
- lack of swing wings (how would those tiny wings have performed at altitude?)
- lack of turbofans
- limited payload relative to cost

TSR2 seems to be a very high risk way of bombing Moscow, most likely a one way ticket, in which case you may as well send a missile.
I think what we really needed was UKFG - swing wings, turbofans, multi role capability- TSR2 was a dead end
Looking at the amount of flying time and the issues resolved/identified, they did remarkably well indeed. Look at the amount of time a current aircraft takes to get into the air and then on into service. F-35 is around 30yrs. Compare that with TSR2 timeline.
In order:
1: Correct. Due to the limited performance of the new engines (~80% thrust reliability iirc) and afterburner issues. It went supersonic on one engine though.
2: Identified issues and stop-gap remedy supplied (Salisbury tie) as well as beginning to redesign for an upgraded solution to the gear.
3 & 5: Everything electrical was "immature" in the 60's but it was what the UK had to live with. The low level ride was described as smooth, so hopefully those valve driven electronics could still keep a head of steam...
4: Any engineer will say whatever they work on is a nightmare... Your point is?

Swing wings were not needed. Period. As for turbofans? Where do you fit the afterburners?
Going to Moscow in any aircraft was a one-way affair, as stated by both Vulcan and Bucc crews. We are talking about 1960/1970's doctrine and tactics, so having a long range with supersonic dash capability has advantages.
The engines development fed into the Concorde programme, the TFR fed into MRCA/Tonka, the electronics and radar helped develop newer technologies.
Sadly it was the "multi-role capability" that killed TSR2, by adding unnecessary nonsense.
Also, it was the last British warplane. Everything afterwards had to be a compromise with other nations' interests & capabilities.

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Re: TSR-2 (Cancelled Project)

Post by mrclark303 »

swoop wrote: 10 Sep 2022, 09:25
SD67 wrote: 09 Sep 2022, 08:36 According to public source material
- Only flew supersonic once (1)
- Major problems with landing gear (2)
- Terrain following radar immature, may have been shaken to bits by low level flight (3)
- Engines would have been a maintenance nightmare (4)
- Mission computer verging on obsolete (5)

Added to the general design limitations
- lack of swing wings (how would those tiny wings have performed at altitude?)
- lack of turbofans
- limited payload relative to cost

TSR2 seems to be a very high risk way of bombing Moscow, most likely a one way ticket, in which case you may as well send a missile.
I think what we really needed was UKFG - swing wings, turbofans, multi role capability- TSR2 was a dead end
Looking at the amount of flying time and the issues resolved/identified, they did remarkably well indeed. Look at the amount of time a current aircraft takes to get into the air and then on into service. F-35 is around 30yrs. Compare that with TSR2 timeline.
In order:
1: Correct. Due to the limited performance of the new engines (~80% thrust reliability iirc) and afterburner issues. It went supersonic on one engine though.
2: Identified issues and stop-gap remedy supplied (Salisbury tie) as well as beginning to redesign for an upgraded solution to the gear.
3 & 5: Everything electrical was "immature" in the 60's but it was what the UK had to live with. The low level ride was described as smooth, so hopefully those valve driven electronics could still keep a head of steam...
4: Any engineer will say whatever they work on is a nightmare... Your point is?

Swing wings were not needed. Period. As for turbofans? Where do you fit the afterburners?
Going to Moscow in any aircraft was a one-way affair, as stated by both Vulcan and Bucc crews. We are talking about 1960/1970's doctrine and tactics, so having a long range with supersonic dash capability has advantages.
The engines development fed into the Concorde programme, the TFR fed into MRCA/Tonka, the electronics and radar helped develop newer technologies.
Sadly it was the "multi-role capability" that killed TSR2, by adding unnecessary nonsense.
Also, it was the last British warplane. Everything afterwards had to be a compromise with other nations' interests & capabilities.
Unfortunately Swoop, the Avionics were a serious concern, had TSR2 survived into service it would probably have had technology refresh to MK2 standards in the late 1970's. The early 1960's Avionics would have been obsolete by the early 1970's for that matter, just as it reached operational service!

It would have been a huge headache for the Warsaw pact though, low level high speed and extremely difficult to intercept, carrying 6 x WE177 bombs with retard kits, able to strike targets in Russia from West Germany and drop tanks possibly putting Moscow on the target list....

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Re: TSR-2 (Cancelled Project)

Post by swoop »

mrclark303 wrote: 10 Sep 2022, 17:21 Unfortunately Swoop, the Avionics were a serious concern, had TSR2 survived into service it would probably have had technology refresh to MK2 standards in the late 1970's. The early 1960's Avionics would have been obsolete by the early 1970's for that matter, just as it reached operational service!
Absolutely. Anything electronic is obsolete the moment it hits the shops. Especially so for MoD procurement processes!
The submarines had the same problems, until the acceptance of consumer-grade off the shelf equipment appeared in the 80's.

Just look at what the F-14 became later in its life, once upgraded to the D variant with modern electronics!

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Re: TSR-2 (Cancelled Project)

Post by SD67 »

Well if Tempest ends up as large and long ranged as is mooted there may as well be a TSR3 strike variant. Maybe it all comes full circle

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Re: TSR-2 (Cancelled Project)

Post by SKB »

TSR-2 The Untold Story (Documentary)

Upscaled HD version

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