Eastern Europe

Discuss current, historical or potential future deployments, as well the defence of the UK's overseas interests.
User avatar
GibMariner
Senior Member
Posts: 1351
Joined: 12 May 2015, 14:17

Re: Eastern Europe

Post by GibMariner »

UK to enhance NATO's ability to rapidly respond to threats
The Defence Secretary Michael Fallon has authorised a package of defence support to allies in the East of Europe as they face threats such as aggression from Russia.

The package includes:

500 troops to Estonia to provide reassurance and to react immediately to any crisis or incident.
Thousands of troops on standby to deploy within days, wherever needed, as the UK leads NATO’s quick reaction spearhead force.
Around 150 personnel with equipment to deploy to Poland to operate and train alongside each other to improve interoperability.
A target to train 4000 Ukrainian soldiers by the end of March 2017.
Attending the NATO Summit in Warsaw, Mr. Fallon said:

These deployments show Britain taking a leading role in NATO, protecting the security of our Baltic allies. We can do this because we are increasing defence spending every year for the rest of the decade.

These deployments are on top of the work the UK already does to help NATO bolster the defence of allies in the region. We have:

Committed to a minimum of 2% of GDP spend on Defence and have set in motion the most significant programme of strengthening collective defence in a decade.
Contributed four RAF Typhoons to the Baltic Air Policing (BAP) mission until the end of August. The jets are on 24/7 standby to respond instantaneously to encroachment in NATO airspace.
Participated in joint exercises such as Exercise Anakonda in Poland – the largest NATO exercise in 2016 which included 800 troops and Army vehicles.
Contributed five ships including HMS Iron Duke, HMS Ocean and HMS Pembroke to NATO exercises in the Baltic Sea.
Continued to train the Ukrainian Armed Forces in countering-IEDs, operations in urban environments, medical care, logistics and operational planning. The UK has also gifted over £1million worth of equipment to the country.
Provided reassurance and training support to the armed forces of the Baltic States and Poland as part of the US-German-UK Transatlantic Capability Enhancement and Training (TACET) initiative.
These measures all flow from actions agreed at the last NATO Summit in Wales in 2014, where a Readiness Action Plan was agreed with the aim of sending a clear signal to Russia in the wake of the illegal annexation of Crimea.

While at the NATO Summit the Defence Secretary was due to meet with allies including the US, France, Poland, Germany and Finland. During the meeting with his Finnish counterpart, Mr Jussi Niinistö, Michael Fallon will sign a framework agreement for defence cooperation as a demonstration of the importance placed on the UK’s relationship with the country.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-t ... to-threats

arfah
Senior Member
Posts: 2173
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 19:02
Niue

Re: Eastern Europe

Post by arfah »

-<>-<>-<>-
Admin Note: This user is banned after turning most of their old posts into spam. This is why you may see their posts containing nothing more than dots or symbols. We have decided to keep these posts in place as it shows where they once were and why other users may be replying to things no longer visible in the topic. We apologise for any inconvenience.

marktigger
Senior Member
Posts: 4640
Joined: 01 May 2015, 10:22
United Kingdom

Re: Eastern Europe

Post by marktigger »

150 in Poland
500 in estonia

part of multinational Batalions wonder who we'll be paired with?
Canada are putting troops into latvia

User avatar
AstuteAssassin
Member
Posts: 26
Joined: 19 Apr 2016, 19:45
United Kingdom

Re: Eastern Europe

Post by AstuteAssassin »


User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 16312
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
United Kingdom

Re: Eastern Europe

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

marktigger wrote:150 in Poland
500 in estonia

part of multinational Batalions wonder who we'll be paired with?
Canada are putting troops into latvia
Gone up a bit since the summer:
". About 800 troops will be stationed in Estonia this summer, while a further 200 are being sent to Poland.

The RAF is also sending Typhoon fighter jets to Romania."

Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

They did drop the GMRLS from Estonia contingent. The repolished Winter Palace where Putin likes to meet/ show off to foreign visitors is almost by the Estonia border, and the rockets could easily reach the central parading grounds in St. Pete.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 16312
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
United Kingdom

Re: Eastern Europe

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Not a direct answer to the pairing question
"
part of multinational Batalions wonder who we'll be paired with?"
but in the long term will produce different combinations:

"
Lately, though, Russian analysts have been watching this very vanilla-sounding Nordic association carefully.

That’s because while its member states may consider themselves very peaceful indeed, the five-year-old Northern Group is a military alliance. Take a look at the group’s members: Britain, Poland, Germany, the Netherlands, the Nordic states, the Baltic states. Only two countries in this 11-strong congregation are not NATO members: Sweden and Finland. And there they are, collaborating with their northern neighbors on defense issues and participating in talks held by the Northern Group’s NATO members.

“The Northern Group provides a key platform to help shape and deliver Europe’s and NATO’s response to the security implications of Russia’s indefensible actions in Ukraine and whose incursions of European air and sea space have increased,” Britain’s defense secretary, Michael Fallon, said ahead of the group’s meeting in November last year, at which point annual air incursions into the members’ territory had reached 100—three times as many as during all of 2013. Not bad for an alliance conceived by then Defense Secretary Liam Fox essentially to keep Britain engaged with its NATO allies."

Think of the AMF, of the old. Plus others, defined by having a Baltic coast line. Has Canada confirmed any contribution? The EU BG (already stood down and replaced by new ones in the rotation) drawn from this group of countries included also an irish contingent in an anti-EOD role.

--------
A bit sloppy the wording in the quote:
- Northern does not translate to Nordic
- the main achievement of the grouping has hardly been the tripling of Russian incursions by air?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Noisey Ghost
Junior Member
Posts: 1
Joined: 09 Dec 2016, 17:38
United Kingdom

Re: Eastern Europe

Post by Noisey Ghost »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Not a direct answer to the pairing question
"
part of multinational Batalions wonder who we'll be paired with?"
but in the long term will produce different combinations:

I believe the US 3rd brigade which recently arrived in Poland earlier this month is dispatching armoured combat teams to surrounding Baltic/east European NATO countries including Estonia (Estonia detachment will include elements of the 68th armoured regiment around 80 vehicles ) , it's also sending similar mobile combat teams to Latvia,Lithuania, Hungary,Romania, Bulgaria , in the next few weeks ,

The U.K. U.S forces in Estonia will also be joined in these exercises by a French armoured combat team of Around five Leclerc tanks, 13 infantry fighting vehicles , around 300 personnel in total .

in 2018 Denmark will be adding to Natos forces in Estonia too

User avatar
The Armchair Soldier
Site Admin
Posts: 1747
Joined: 29 Apr 2015, 08:31
Contact:
United Kingdom

Re: Eastern Europe

Post by The Armchair Soldier »

UK Troops Arrive in Estonia for Major NATO Deployment

Image
Image
Image
Image
Assorted vehicles from 20 Armoured Infantry Brigade arrive in the port of Emden, Germany to be loaded and transported to Estonia in preparation for the 5 RIFLES battlegroup eFP deployment.

Today, Friday the 17 of March, vehicles from 26th Regiment Royal Artillery, 35 Engineer Regiment and the Queen's Royal Hussars, all based in Germany, are loaded at the port of Emden ahead of their NATO enhanced Forward Presence (eFP) deployment to Estonia.

The 5 RIFLES Battlegroup equipment, which will be the lead element for the UK’s Enhanced Forward Presence, based in Estonia in 2017 were loaded in the UK before heading to Germany to collect the remaining vehicles.

LordJim
Member
Posts: 454
Joined: 28 Apr 2016, 00:39
United Kingdom

Re: Eastern Europe

Post by LordJim »

Nice to see but is this anything more than a PR stunt. Could this be the blue print for future UK deployments i.e. only Battalion based battlegroups. If they were taking it seriously the vehicles would have TES packages fitted to show how fast we can actually get a warfighting formation in theatre. The fact that the MoD and Government are milking this for all its worth shows how far we have fallen, remember LIONHEART!!

Tinman
Member
Posts: 290
Joined: 03 May 2015, 17:59
United Kingdom

Re: Eastern Europe

Post by Tinman »

LordJim wrote:Nice to see but is this anything more than a PR stunt. Could this be the blue print for future UK deployments i.e. only Battalion based battlegroups. If they were taking it seriously the vehicles would have TES packages fitted to show how fast we can actually get a warfighting formation in theatre. The fact that the MoD and Government are milking this for all its worth shows how far we have fallen, remember LIONHEART!!
Its a deterrence no more no less, has russia encroached? Oh and while you are reminiscing about LIONHEART what was deployed?

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 16312
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
United Kingdom

Re: Eastern Europe

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Tinman wrote: reminiscing about LIONHEART what was deployed?
A DAG; how many have we got today?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

User avatar
whitelancer
Member
Posts: 619
Joined: 05 May 2015, 22:19
United Kingdom

Re: Eastern Europe

Post by whitelancer »

Quite a lot!
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Frenchie
Member
Posts: 619
Joined: 07 Nov 2016, 15:01
France

Re: Eastern Europe

Post by Frenchie »

The SGTIA (Joint tactical sub-group), commanded by the Colonel Michel de Mesmay, an officer of the 9th Light Armoured Marine Brigade, will serve for six months on the Lynx mission with 300 soldiers, a platoon of five Leclerc tanks of the 1st regiment of chasseurs, a company of the 2nd RIMa with twelve VCI (VBCI IFV) and one VPC (VBCI command and control), and elements of the 6th engineer regiment of Angers. All equipment is shipped by rail.

http://news.err.ee/586961/gallery-frenc ... ve-in-tapa

http://pildid.mil.ee/index.php?/category/58020#content

mickey
Junior Member
Posts: 8
Joined: 29 Mar 2017, 16:40
United Kingdom

Re: Eastern Europe

Post by mickey »

Has anyone ever googled kaliningrad have you seen how much hardware is still there since 1991 and what is on the russian western borders to the Black sea,
what we have in EU is nothing but target practice for the russians, ok its old stock but i bet it still works and a threat to our solders,
why dont we negotiate with the Polish government about having a base in Poland as we are leaving germany,
tell me how fast can we get troops on the ground if the Russians invaded Poland, i dont think we can get any in time for the fall of Berlin
i can drive from kaliningrad to Berlin in 5 hours
Poland will not be Russians first invasion move across the border, putin did a deal with donald tusk, thats why the polish presidents plane was blown up so tusk could take office in his place,
but the only aggressors was the americans until trump took office, have you noticed how things have gone quieter, even the saudis have gone quiet, the place we need to look at is the border with turkey not russia,
im interested in one thing, what threat has russia done other than annexing crimea, or taking control of Ukraine, when the ukrainian government did a runner with billions of £££, ....
hang on that sounds familiar. . . Ukraine wanted to break away from russia , so russia sent the army in to look after the russian people, maybe we should do the same as russia regarding scotland and send the army in to take control of scotland, oh hang on we already did that in 1707 :)

Defiance
Donator
Posts: 870
Joined: 07 Oct 2015, 20:52
United Kingdom

Re: Eastern Europe

Post by Defiance »

Tinman wrote:Its a deterrence no more no less, has russia encroached? Oh and while you are reminiscing about LIONHEART what was deployed?
Deterrent due to politics than it's military value, it's more of a tripwire. If they escalate with British troops in the area we can't quickly look away like Ukraine, we'll be forced to be involved one way or another

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 16312
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
United Kingdom

Re: Eastern Europe

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Defiance wrote:If they escalate with British troops in the area we can't quickly look away like Ukraine, we'll be forced to be involved one way or another
They could just as well paint the relevant NATO article number on every vehicle of that tripwire, just to remind everyone why they are there.

Georgia and Ukraine wanted into the NATO, they both "got it" - in that chronological order. Let's see now, which other European countries have a border with Russia AND are NOT in NATO?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Defiance
Donator
Posts: 870
Joined: 07 Oct 2015, 20:52
United Kingdom

Re: Eastern Europe

Post by Defiance »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Defiance wrote:If they escalate with British troops in the area we can't quickly look away like Ukraine, we'll be forced to be involved one way or another
They could just as well paint the relevant NATO article number on every vehicle of that tripwire, just to remind everyone why they are there.
That's exactly why they're there, the Russians aren't quaking in their boots at the strength of a battalion sized UK battle group in their back yard (which has its own reasons behind it). It's just politics, nothing more.
ArmChairCivvy wrote:Georgia and Ukraine wanted into the NATO, they both "got it" - in that chronological order. Let's see now, which other European countries have a border with Russia AND are NOT in NATO?
Belarus which is an interesting one, positive relations with Russia but maintains its position as a sovereign state. Sometimes it seems like they're best buddies, the next you hear their leader is strengthening ties with the EU due to the rise of Russian activity incited by the start of the Ukraine crisis. Vaguely remember accusations being thrown around that if the Russians walked in the Belarusian Armed Forces wouldn't resist and Putin claiming Belarus is lead by anti-Russian puppets or somesuch.

Border nation with Poland, Ukraine, the Baltic states more to the point, interesting case study to watch.

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 16312
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
United Kingdom

Re: Eastern Europe

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Check out the land corridor to Kaliningrad (which, as of today, operates on a treaty basis; a bit like Gdansk up to the start of WW2).
- the new Fulda Gap in various map exercises?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 16312
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
United Kingdom

Re: Eastern Europe

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Dispersal of tactical a/c regaining currency:
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/british ... an-allies/
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 16312
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
United Kingdom

Re: Eastern Europe

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Only practice makes perfect:
http://news.postimees.ee/4207761/us-air ... on-highway

Losses mount, and it's only an exercise: one Tu-22M3 down (the crew walked away, luckily) and rumours of another one damaged - they only have 10-ish of those that have come through the modernisation process
ArmChairCivvy wrote:Dispersal of tactical a/c regaining currency:
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/british ... an-allies/
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 16312
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
United Kingdom

Re: Eastern Europe

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

" as long as there is a NATO skeptic in the White House, the alliance can’t rest easy"

Any cut to spending for the defense of Europe, or a reduction in U.S. troops here, would - strengthen the argument for European defense autonomy floated by French President Emmanuel Macron and backed by Germany.
- Relations among the rest of the allies could worsen as a result, though:
- Countries on Russia’s border in Europe’s east and north still assume that Moscow can only be deterred with U.S. help, and that a weaker U.S. commitment to NATO is still better than none at all. They regard defense autonomy as unrealistic and, worse, undesirable, putting them on a collision course with those who champion the creation of a "European army".

We seem to be fixated on what France and Germany are saying. The US pays more attention to what they call "new Europe". Now we come to the role/ views of that "skeptic":

He hardly has the habit of following skeptical investigation in that “extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof”. Which means that blind faith (AKA "gut" or "intuition") is not enough to prove anything and, as the real skeptics would say, an “open mind” should not equate to an empty head.
- we may want to remember one of his better speeches, the one in Warsaw, on his way the the Hamburg Jumboree:
- " was a clear statement that the Trump administration finally recognized the greatest threat to Central Europe: a brutal, aggressive Russian neighbor. Trump gave his statement historical depth, citing chapter and verse on Russia's history of dominating the region and suppressing its people. For Poland and its neighbors, the message was clear: the United States would stand with them as a firm ally. Third, Trump underscored America's continued commitment to NATO, specifically mentioning Article 5 and eliminating any ambiguity from his earlier omission."

In short: reversed Trump's own inward-looking nationalism on the campaign trail.
- the problem is: abrupt U-turns seem to be "the new normal"
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 16312
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
United Kingdom

Re: Eastern Europe

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

A former Professor of National Security Strategy, National War College, William H. Hill has written a book (" No place for Russia") that traces the development of the post–Cold War European security order to explain today’s tensions, showing how attempts to integrate Russia into a unified Euro-Atlantic security order were gradually overshadowed by the domination of NATO and the EU―at Russia’s expense.

Without having read the 'just out of the printers' book (spans from 1989 to the annexation of Crimea/ follow-up within Ukraine, rest of) it seems to trace the turn to the worse to 2008, and not based on Georgia alone
- reformation plans of Russian armed forces, especially the army, quickly morphed from a western-style intervention and stabilisation force back towards the Soviet style, but smaller (still massive) force moving divisions around on the chess board... which quickly made the conventional forces treaty a dead letter.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 16312
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
United Kingdom

Re: Eastern Europe

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

S. Eastern Europe has seen some changes (Montenegro has steadily progressed after a thwarted coup) and now https://www.voanews.com/a/greece-first- ... 79662.html though the actual joining of Macedonia is likely to take until 2020.

So, the 30 countries in Nato and 27 (?) in EU in the coming year? Have both now reached their 'natural' limits?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 7314
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
United Kingdom

Re: Eastern Europe

Post by Lord Jim »

This once again makes the importance of re organising the command structure of NATO more important. The point at which political control is passed to the military at present is far too restrictive. requiring the consent of all members before things begin happen is too convoluted and we need to start to return to the command and control set up that existed in the 1980s where SACEUR has far more autonomy.

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 16312
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
United Kingdom

Re: Eastern Europe

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Lord Jim wrote: requiring the consent of all members before things begin happen is too convoluted
Didn't the Wales mtng give the SACEUR authority to move the first 55k (ground troops) to meet the treat/ to deter?
- a lot of other things can slot in place in parallel, while the movement of divisions is being 'debated'
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Post Reply