UK Defence Forum

Possible FMS Of P-8A MPA To Germany: P-3C Stop-Gap Solution Or MAWS Alternative ?

The United States' State Department approved a possible Foreign Military Sale (FMS) to Germany of five Boeing P-8A Maritime Patrol Aircraft (MPA) and associated support, and related equipment, for an estimated cost of $1.77 billion.
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Question remains however on whether the German MoD has the necessary funding to procure new P-8A MPAs… and whether this will truly be a temporary stop-gap solution or an alternative to MAWS.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... ternative/

On Twitter, ISPK | Center for Maritime Strategy & Security replied to our post:
As of today it is a stop-gap solution. Currently, 1-2
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P3-Cs are operational (average) and the situation will surely not improve. It is agreed, that the MPA capability is desperately needed both, domestically and in an allied context. That's why
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looks for COTS replacement.

Procurement is always sensitive in
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and the commitment to #MAWS adds another complexity layer. However, MAWS will not be operational before 2035(the earliest imo). So we're talking about a 10-15 year gap. The P8 is the natural choice as it is technically matured,

Fulfills all requirements of @CdrDeuNavalAir
and could easily be integrated in
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and NATO ops cos it's operated by close partners like i.a.
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. Given the narrow timeline, it's most important to get
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parliamentary approval before federal elections in September 21.

xav wrote:it's operated by close partners like i.a.
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Joint subs (and training for them); why not a joint ASW plane fleet?
- cfr. cross-basing between the UK and Norway (not forgetting the triangle with Keflavik)

Airbus is going to kick-off about this big time

Little J wrote:Airbus is going to kick-off about this big time

Not, if/as they get to
- build a LOUT-based prototype with funding from the FCAS 'venture'
- build another 3 dozen-ish Eurofighters (with some improvements; and a radar that is more or less German)
a much bigger deal (taken together) than embarking on a Nimrod-like development for a v small addressable market, for recouping that investment

This
https://www.defenseworld.net/news/29179#.YIWkuuco82w
is how it was looking in March.

Then in April the further deliveries are cut, and it is unclear if even the mentioned
" equipping NATO’s spearhead formation, the Very High Readiness Joint Task Force (VJTF) 2023, which the Bundeswehr will be furnishing, with the new system.
[= ]In essence, System Panzergrenadier consists of an upgraded version of the Puma – the infantry fighting vehicle (IFV) made by the Rheinmetall and Krauss-Maffei Wegmann joint venture PSM GmbH – and the VJTF2023 version of the Future Soldier – Expanded System (IdZ-ES) developed by Rheinmetall"
upgrades to the already delivered units will go ahead.

In the abridged article (not full subscription) from the German trade press there was a mention of e25 mln proposal being put into the budget... did not say for which partial delivery; but not likely to be enough for the full upgrade.

Well Germany is going to be on of the few countries that has actually put its "Future Soldier" programme into service, I think the French might have also. Our FIST programme seems to have fizzled out with a few technologies taken on separately.

The Germans are getting back in the game, but slowly. Same we cannot say the same yet.

Lord Jim wrote:Well Germany is going to be on of the few countries that has actually put its "Future Soldier" programme into service, I think the French might have also. Our FIST programme seems to have fizzled ou

Well, it only works if the vehicles get the upgrades, too.

France had enough installed to send to Mali (not with the first wave), the FIST orders run at 70 k (what was the future strength, again, pls remind me ), Israel and Finland are pushing ahead (in the latter the networking stops at the section leader level).

But this comparable to MADL, which is a solution for a/c deployed together for a mission.
- hardened comms, digital radios... all that sort of thing has to be rolled out in parallel, to work as the backbone

It would appear, following the FMS P-8 sale approval from the DSCA, Germany is likely to acquire the P-8A as the 'temporary' replacement for their P-3C fleet as the German Government has rejected the French proposal to lease 4 ATL-2. (TheAviationist https://theaviationist.com/2021/05/10/p-8-germany/)

Quoting the Parliamentary State Secretary Thomas Silberhorn

“The capabilities of Boeing’s P-8A Poseidon weapon system basically correspond to those of the P-3C Orion. Only the P-8A Poseidon weapon system could ensure a seamless and timely capability transition if a Foreign Military Sales contract were concluded before the summer break in 2021. The possibility of operation for an interim period in the overall system of the Bundeswehr using the existing infrastructure of the base in Nordholz would be given.”

When responding to the French ATL-2 offer ...

“The number and the expected readiness of the aircraft on offer will foreseeably not be able to cover the requirements of potential future operational commitments as well as the needs for crew regeneration and for conducting training and reconnaissance flights.”

[from DefenseNews] “The aircraft were produced as of 1984 and fielded to the French navy beginning in 1989,” the letter stated. “The condition of the proposed ATL2 cells was not specified by France,”

In a Defensenews article on the same topic (https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... e-hunters/), Sebastian Bruns, a naval analyst at the University of Kiel is speculating on the nature of the airframes that would be supplied. The speculation is that there may be a need to re-wing the aircraft which is the current economically prohobitive option with their P-3s. Bruns comments ...

“If the French offer us a similar option [re-winging old aircraft], we haven’t gained anything,” he said. “I can’t help but think that they want to get rid of their aging airframes while driving a wedge into Germany’s prospective P-8 purchase.”

France has previously pressured Germany publicly to avoid US purchases off the shelf (F-35) as it may compromise their commitment to future programs. In this case it is the joint Franco-German MAWS program, expected to enter service around 2035 and the current concept proposal from Airbus centres on a modified A320neo airframe.

It's difficult to be too critical of France around this topic in this particular instance in my opinion. P-8A isn't a cheap aircraft to acquire and certainly not if you're looking for a 10 year stop-gap solution, this could cause budget problems downstream regarding future MPA cooperation.

Defiance wrote:In this case it is the joint Franco-German MAWS program, expected to enter service around 2035 and the current concept proposal from Airbus centres on a modified A320neo airframe.

That is an odd timeframe for using that airframe.

There are also plans under the same programme to produce a European replacement for the E-3As used by the NATO AWACS fleet.

Defiance wrote:It's difficult to be too critical of France around this topic in this particular instance in my opinion. P-8A isn't a cheap aircraft to acquire and certainly not if you're looking for a 10 year stop-gap solution, this could cause budget problems downstream

Ohh dear, the Germans and the French have been joined at 'the hip' as the ASW and SigInt have been on the same airframe
... guess what! The SigInt has gone its way; and ASW (the rqrmnt) is met with the best in class (No, not Nimrod, even though it would have been better than the alternative on offer)

A more light hearted post, a interesting display by a Luftwaffe Phantom F-4F in Malta in 2009. They must have some seriously different regulations for air displays there compared to the UK and most of Europe! Good video though.

Why are they not going for C-295 MPA as a stop gap would be a lot easier to sell on in 10 to 15 years or kept and striped out back to transports

They are of the opinion that the only new platform that can match or surpass the capabilities of an updated P-3C is a P-8A. On the plus side it might allow the RAF to buy half a dozen or more second hand P-8As in the 2030s for a reasonably price as they introduce the Franco/German platform. So we should given the Germans all the positivity we can.

Lord Jim wrote:A more light hearted post, a interesting display by a Luftwaffe Phantom F-4F in Malta in 2009. They must have some seriously different regulations for air displays there compared to the UK and most of Europe! Good video though.

Is the smokescreen a normal thing for Phantom or because of age?

I think it may still have the "Smokey" engines that were fitted to the early and mid generation Phantoms.

This a series of videos on You Tube covering the training and deployment of the Bundeswehr to Lithuania to take command of the NATO Battlegroup. Use the You Subtitles button. It is really interesting to follow things, this is the first of the videos and I strongly recommend watching them all, they provide quite an insight.

Great camera work (recruitment videos have a good budget?).

Anyway, good to see that they can draw from other units (Panzerlehrbataillon 93 der Panzerlehrbrigade 9 - Bundeswehr) than just the 1 PzD, which seems to have the kit they want to impress other parts of the very-high readiness force with
- didn't realise the MG on top is still considered an AA-weapon. The reach must be much less than with the NSV ( the Ruskie 12.7x108 mm caliber heavy machine gun that has ammo 10% longer than used even on the M2 )

Another Bundeswehr video, this time concentrating on their Mountain Troops. I know we have the Royal Marines Cadre trained to do this and instruct others but I do not think they use Pack Animals. Might be something for our planned Ranger Regiment to get trained up in for example.

You will need to turn on subtitles and change the language to English in the setting if you cannot read or speak German though.

Interesting to consider some of the advantages of pack animals over mechanical means, could troops better live off the land with such ?

Germany chooses P-8A Poseidon as its new maritime patrol aircraft

https://www.navaltoday.com/2021/07/02/g ... -aircraft/
The interesting thing here is the potential for German navy interoperability with United States, Australia, India, the United Kingdom, Norway, Korea and New Zealand; i.e. not just within NATO but within a broader context. Should further friendly countries, esp NATO coastal states, select P8 then that could further deepen.

J. Tattersall wrote:

Germany chooses P-8A Poseidon as its new maritime patrol aircraft

https://www.navaltoday.com/2021/07/02/g ... -aircraft/
The interesting thing here is the potential for German navy interoperability with United States, Australia, India, the United Kingdom, Norway, Korea and New Zealand; i.e. not just within NATO but within a broader context. Should further friendly countries, esp NATO coastal states, select P8 then that could further deepen.

So that's what Biden got for Nordstream 2....thin gruel. Macron will be spitting feathers though

dmereifield wrote: So that's what Biden got for Nordstream 2....thin gruel. Macron will be spitting feathers though

That's what happens when you put knackered ATL-2s up against P-8, they don't do well!

The true ramifications of this decision won't show themselves for another 5-10 years when money for MAWS needs to get ramped up (right when they're spending more on FCAS, Eurodrone, Next gen tank etc)

Some interesting stuff on the German operation in Kabul

That is just the type of capability we should be aiming at with the successor to the Puma etc. Being able to be rapidly deployed by air to support SF in operations anywhere in the world when needed. We could do now with the Puma but it isn't really set up for this type of operation. We need number of the new helicopters configured for SF operations that will be able to compliment the new SF optimised Chinooks currently on order.