German Armed Forces

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Defiance
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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by Defiance »

serge750 wrote:Been on the cards for a while but still surprised that Germany didn't totally back a airbus/eu project like a A319 platform....even as a prestige job creation/skills retention initiative
$$$

They'll need to kick off MAWS (with the required cash) roughly the same timeframe as MGCS, FCAS, Eurodrone, Typhoon fleet upgrades and F/A-18 acquisition are all firing. They only have so much cash to spend on development programs at once.

Lord Jim
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Re: German Armed Forces

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If MAWS actually gets going it is going to have a very limited market. The P-8 is grabbing all the high end contracts from many countries wanting to replace their P-3s whilst Europe is doing well with cheaper but still effective MPAs mainly twin turboprop designs. Besides France I cannot see any major purchases coming out of Europe, especially if Germany decides to retain its new P-8s. Canada might be an option as they are going to have to replace their Auroras at some point in the future, and possibly some South American nations or Gulf States, but in all these cases it will be in direct competition with a proven and mature platform in he shape of the P-8. There is a danger MAWS could become a French vanity programme.

inch
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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by inch »

Don't know why but I could see Germany wanting to join tempest program ,bad move tbh trying to shackle program down to German left/ green anti sales leaning ,if not joining trying to join the programs together somehow

Defiance
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Re: German Armed Forces

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inch wrote:Don't know why but I could see Germany wanting to join tempest program ,bad move tbh trying to shackle program down to German left/ green anti sales leaning ,if not joining trying to join the programs together somehow
If you think the French went bananas over AUKUS, Germany walking away from FCAS would cause them to implode. The French are more likely to abandon the Germans rather than vice versa IMO.

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SKB
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Re: German Armed Forces

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Defiance wrote:If you think the French went bananas over AUKUS, Germany walking away from FCAS would cause them to implode.
ImageImage
:twisted: :clap: :mrgreen:

inch
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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by inch »

If abandoned Germany , There's no where for France to go ,the French need German cash and can't see tempest partners ever agreeing to pander to the French taking over the program ,they just couldn't take the French bull shit

Defiance
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Re: German Armed Forces

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inch wrote:If abandoned Germany , There's no where for France to go ,the French need German cash and can't see tempest partners ever agreeing to pander to the French taking over the program ,they just couldn't take the French bull shit
Well this is it, personally I don't believe they will let it fail no matter how bad negotiations get. It was hailed as a flagship EU program and against this current backdrop of increasing EU sovereignty, if it were to fall apart it would be highly embarrasing for everyone and neither side would want to be the one to break it up.

Ignoring the operational side, both France and Germany stand to gain more $$$ and national workshare continuing with FCAS than they ever would leaving for Tempest at this point, and they both know it.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: German Armed Forces

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Defiance wrote:If you think the French went bananas over AUKUS, Germany walking away from FCAS would cause them to implode. The French are more likely to abandon the Germans rather than vice versa IMO.
That would kill the land prgrms... they have already implemented a major x-border merger to get those going.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Lord Jim
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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by Lord Jim »

We could always step in and replace the French in the future MBT replacement programme. Have the precondition that some out built at the Rheinmetall/BAe Systems facility in the UK and we have a part in any exports. Just think of the number of Leopard 2 users world wide! In fact Germany might see us as a more viable partner than France on a number of programmes. Just threatening to switch could be used to being the French into line with Germany's desires.

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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by Timmymagic »

Things could be about to get even more unhappy in France / Germany world.....speculation that Germany has finally lost patience with Tiger and is looking to get AH-64. Unhappiness at upgrade cost, reliability and industrial participation. With the Australian's already heading for the exit this would effectively kill Tiger off in the medium term. It would leave France and Spain as the only 2 users with 64 examples, not many aircraft/users to spread the cost of development of the Tiger 3 over...

It also could impact MBDA as they were chosen to develop the MHT, a larger derivative of the MMP for the French to replace their Hellfire missiles on Tiger. MBDA also makes the PARS 3 missile (an offshoot of Trigat LR) for the Germans, that would also likely die with Tiger.

https://www.mbda-systems.com/press-rele ... elicopter/

https://www.mbda-systems.com/product/pars-3-lr/

https://www.defense-aerospace.com/artic ... ation.html


Gtal
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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by Gtal »

Lol. How sany times have the media issued FCAS obituaries alone?
Also, "further erodes"? Where's the previous erosion exactly?

On the other hand France and Germany just finalised Ariane 6 production agreement.
Sooo eroded..

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Gtal wrote:Also, "further erodes"? Where's the previous erosion exactly?
The related points in the article ( a French view, but I have made the same points here):
"It is probable that the German refusal, beyond the question of the Tigre’s availability rates, is due to the fact that the Tiger Mark 3 does not give a major role to German industry. It is certain that the probable withdrawal of Germany from the Tiger Mark 3 - we do not see the future government coalition going back on this point - should encourage us, if necessary, to review the conditions for armaments cooperation in general, and in particular on the MGCS and SCAF programs.

It is clear that there cannot be any guarantee of on the part of Germany as to its long-term participation to the successive upgrades that mark the life of a complex airborne or ground weapons system. But without such an evolution, a weapon system can degrade very quickly. "

- echoes of Eurofighter; without it being mentioned (as the French themselves pulled the rug from under the original prgrm)?

The lever is the fighter project and the other main outcomes hang 'off it'. In this context the Tiger3 is "Weihnachtsgeld" and certainly much less than 1/13th fraction of the total R&D monies at stake.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Lord Jim
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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by Lord Jim »

Is it just me or when Germany thinks Defence programmes it think technology and jobs first before what the programme will actually deliver. There is nothing wrong with this and the UK seems to be heading that way though is having a few difficulties along the way.

As for the Tigre, it hasn't really lived up to expectations, with issues arising from the very beginning with the desire to build three versions rather than one, with the latter actually becoming the main version for export and amendments to contracts. Australia ditching theirs early for the AH-64E Apache Guardian was a kick in the teeth for the programme, a very public one. One just has to look at how many Apaches have been ordered since the first Tigres were delivered to get the idea.

Timmymagic
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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by Timmymagic »

Gtal wrote:On the other hand France and Germany just finalised Ariane 6 production agreement.
Sooo eroded..
Gtal wrote:Lol. How sany times have the media issued FCAS obituaries alone?

The purchase of P-8....

And I'm not sure Ariane 6 is going to be a success...its looks horrendously outdated before first flight.

inch
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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by inch »

Who can see France going it alone again on FCAS program lol

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Scimitar54
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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by Scimitar54 »

Francophiles ?

Defiance
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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by Defiance »

inch wrote:Who can see France going it alone again on FCAS program lol
IMO they have the capacity and the sheer will, but that'll be overpowered by the need for FCAS to be successful as a major European defence program. Considering all the recent talk about strategic autonomy etc, it'd be a hell of a statement if either party walked away from this program.

P-8 is a frustration but it won't cause FCAS to collapse, nowhere near. Inwardly I doubt if the French were that surprised by the decision.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Defiance wrote:P-8 is a frustration but it won't cause FCAS to collapse, nowhere near. Inwardly I doubt if the French were that surprised by the decision.
Another side story, nowhere near the central lever. The Atlantiques (to be replaced by paper-ware) were coming close to the over-serving Shackletons (to be replaced by vapour-ware).

The real impact is a follow-on (just a small one) from the totally protectionist USAF tanker (competition) decision
... so overall: let the best man win (but only if it is 'our' man).

The bigger picture I could 'fathom' here is that on programmes that are not defining 'sovereignty', Germany is turning to ready-to-deploy solutions, as we have over the past two decades, but the 'hinge' here... for both the UK and for Germany:
- how do you define prgrms that should receive those (saved) R&D monies, so that in the long run the defence&aeronautical industry will be self-sustaining, rather than on continuous 'life support' :?:
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

SW1
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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by SW1 »

Interesting could of course be a play to ease Boeing disquiet if say for example the Germans were to bail on f18 for example.

Lord Jim
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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by Lord Jim »

Is Germany following the UK, where distant thinking and R&D are resulting in the present and near future being neglected and not properly resourced?

Defiance
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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by Defiance »

Lord Jim wrote:Is Germany following the UK, where distant thinking and R&D are resulting in the present and near future being neglected and not properly resourced?
It's a case of $$$, nothing more. To copy an early reply of mine ...

They'll need to kick off MAWS (with the required cash) roughly the same timeframe as MGCS, FCAS, Eurodrone, Typhoon fleet upgrades and F/A-18 acquisition are all firing. They only have so much cash to spend on development programs at once.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Defiance wrote: kick off MAWS (with the required cash) roughly the same timeframe as MGCS, FCAS, Eurodrone, Typhoon fleet upgrades and F/A-18 acquisition are all firing
Without ANY INSIDE KNOWLEDGE take off the first one [still will cost a pretty penny], and then also the upgrades to the already delivered Pumas, plus any further deliveries of that model... LYNX better, cheaper or none such?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Gtal
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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by Gtal »

ArmChairCivvy wrote: 08 Nov 2021, 04:50 ...It is clear that there cannot be any guarantee of on the part of Germany as to its long-term participation to the successive upgrades that mark the life of a complex airborne or ground weapons system....

...echoes of Eurofighter; without it being mentioned (as the French themselves pulled the rug from under the original prgrm)?
You got a source for that opinion?

Germany upgrades it's kit systematically and consistently. Leopard is on what now? A7 I think. Their Boxer and Puma/Lynx programs are best in class and already being further developed.
Complete Eurofighter fleet is being equipped with Aesa radars and they initiated the EF quadriga program, i.e. Tranche 4.
What are the germans not upgrading is the real question?!

UK Aesa upgrade for EF? Apparently RnD is funded but no indication if or when the upgade might actually be installed.
Germany has now ordered about 200 Eurofighter. It's expected to order another ~50 in the near future as Tornado replacement.
That'll putt them at around 250 overall.
The UK? Aren't even planning to order replacements for Tranche 1 and are unlikely to buy anymore, substantially failing to reach it's initial commitment, an approach that is currently being repeated on F-35 where it seems unlikely the UK will fulfill much more than half it's original commitment.
Meanwhile the Challenger is just now getting full Hunter-killer function and infra-red optics. (Actually the Germans are providing it).
Ajax seems to be a complete failure. Warrior upgrade scrapped.
Plus a navy that will soon be wihtout AshM, frigates sporting half empty VLS... Is there even a perfunctory timeline for QE self-defence upgrades or Crowsnest?

This forum is hilarious

Lord Jim
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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by Lord Jim »

Neither country has a stellar record or upgrading ir maintaining its complicated platforms, just look at both nations Navies, where readiness has often meant significant numbers of ships were stuck in port unable to sail due to lack or maintenance or spares. Yes the German Army is finally upgrading and expanding its Tank fleet, but this is really a recent development. How many Leopard 2A5/A6 were operational a decade ago, and how many A4s were still on service then. I do not know but I hope someone will.

SW1
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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by SW1 »

Suspicion German will bail on F18 for further typhoon order


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