Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

[TheLoneRanger]

The future german Typhoon ECR order will most likely only consist of the ECR pods by Saab/Helsing.
They will be integrated into 15 already existing airframes.
The German AF however still insists on getting 30 ECR Typhoons.
A larger T5 order (about maybe 60-80) Aircraft becomes more likely imo.

Lets hope Germany approves the sale of Typhoons to Saudia Arabia soon ..

[TheLoneRanger]

The future german Typhoon ECR order will most likely only consist of the ECR pods by Saab/Helsing.
They will be integrated into 15 already existing airframes.
The German AF however still insists on getting 30 ECR Typhoons.
A larger T5 order (about maybe 60-80) Aircraft becomes more likely imo.

Lets hope Germany approves the sale of Typhoons to Saudia Arabia soon ..

Alas they won't and after 50 years of working closely together on both Tornado and Thypoon our working relationship regarding cutting edge fighter technology is coming to an end.

GCAP is likely to be officially incorporated by years end and as soon that happens, we are in directly competing teams.

I expect the working relationship that will go on for decades to come with Thypoon support to get increasingly frosty, distant and mistrustful.

Germany will always have a split political personality as long as they have coalition governments. There will always be someone in the cabinet who says no to defence exports, so thank god they aren't in GCAP!

[Gtal]

The claim that Eurofighter ECR will amount to a few pods being strapped to a couple existing airframe ist completely made up!
Just like Tornado ECR was a dedicated EW platform with all the EW gimmicks included the EF ECR will be dedicated new build full spectrum EW platforms.

Tornado ECR was modernized and upgraded less than a decade ago and provides the starting point for the EF development.
It's worth the cost even if only 20 ECR are produced as this will go on to serve as the foundation for developing FCAS EW capabilities as well.

What's the matter, you guys trying to make yourselves feel better about the UK airpower falling significantly behind Germany and France??

Cutting Tranche 1 without even partial replacements, only upgrading like 30-40 EF with Aesa radar even though the F-35 buy is being cut by almost 2/3 with a likely fleet of 50 and perhaps a dozen or two replacement over the program lifetime!!!

Looks pretty pathetic when matched up against it's nominal peers and even more so compared to Global Britains self-image!!!

[Meriv9]

The doubts on the ECR version isnt if it is possibile, but at which cost.

I really dont see the German Taxpayer accepting to pay more money for the ECR version when the F-35 is cheaper.

Adding that if you try to play the card of "national industry" they can pull out the card of "then why did you stop the Saudi Arabia deal", if you arise moral obligation they will then argue if you realize you are joining the french in the FCAS.

In poor words Anglosaxon media lobbies are going to have a field day feeding propaganda (and objective facts) to the German tax payer. That like most north Europeans are a sponge for propaganda (British included).

[hopper]

The claim that Eurofighter ECR will amount to a few pods being strapped to a couple existing airframe ist completely made up!
Just like Tornado ECR was a dedicated EW platform with all the EW gimmicks included the EF ECR will be dedicated new build full spectrum EW platforms.

Tornado ECR was modernized and upgraded less than a decade ago and provides the starting point for the EF development.
It's worth the cost even if only 20 ECR are produced as this will go on to serve as the foundation for developing FCAS EW capabilities as well.

What's the matter, you guys trying to make yourselves feel better about the UK airpower falling significantly behind Germany and France??

Cutting Tranche 1 without even partial replacements, only upgrading like 30-40 EF with Aesa radar even though the F-35 buy is being cut by almost 2/3 with a likely fleet of 50 and perhaps a dozen or two replacement over the program lifetime!!!

Looks pretty pathetic when matched up against it's nominal peers and even more so compared to Global Britains self-image!!!

Germany really need not bother with any advanced systems, best just save the money, as it never deploys anywhere in any meaningful way.

The bugle calls to action and Germany makes up excuses after excuses why it can't (won't) deploy.

All in all a rather unreliable NATO partner.

Its currently being overshadowed in Europe by Poland, a country that treats defence seriously and is rapidly becoming as important as France in European mainland NATO, Germany is being progressively left behind in the shadows.

The rather unimpressive looking FCAS project will likely be cancelled anyway, a result of all too typical eurozone squabbling, leaving Germany up the proverbial creek without a paddle.

Let's hope they don't try and join GCAP!

[zavve]

Tornado ECR was modernized and upgraded less than a decade ago and provides the starting point for the EF development.
It's worth the cost even if only 20 ECR are produced as this will go on to serve as the foundation for developing FCAS EW capabilities as well.

Well if the EK EW system will be used as a foundation for FCAS EW that will be great news in my country since it's an entirely SAAB system.

[serge750]

Gtal has a point of our UK cuts in our forces though hope the GCAP heralds a stronger commitment to our forces & industrial benefit

[SiVisPacemParaBellum]

The claim that Eurofighter ECR will amount to a few pods being strapped to a couple existing airframe ist completely made up!
Just like Tornado ECR was a dedicated EW platform with all the EW gimmicks included the EF ECR will be dedicated new build full spectrum EW platforms.

Tornado ECR was modernized and upgraded less than a decade ago and provides the starting point for the EF development.
It's worth the cost even if only 20 ECR are produced as this will go on to serve as the foundation for developing FCAS EW capabilities as well.

What's the matter, you guys trying to make yourselves feel better about the UK airpower falling significantly behind Germany and France??

Cutting Tranche 1 without even partial replacements, only upgrading like 30-40 EF with Aesa radar even though the F-35 buy is being cut by almost 2/3 with a likely fleet of 50 and perhaps a dozen or two replacement over the program lifetime!!!

Looks pretty pathetic when matched up against it's nominal peers and even more so compared to Global Britains self-image!!!

The first Batch of 15 german Typhoon ECR Aircraft will actually consist of already ordered (prbly T4) airframes.
This has been a somewhat official Position for a while.
But there've also been rumors that we might see 15 additional T4 airframes (because of the recent Typhoon discussions).
Those rumors shouldn't be true and we can expect the parliament's committee to approve the Saab/Helsing Solution for 15 Aircraft by Wednesday.
This will most likely be followed by a huge T5 order in 2025-2027 which will include 15 dedicated ECR airframes.
I'm sry for the wrong reporting on 15 additional T4 ECR airframes.

[Spitfire9]

The doubts on the ECR version isnt if it is possibile, but at which cost.

I really dont see the German Taxpayer accepting to pay more money for the ECR version when the F-35 is cheaper.

Producing an ECR version would be absurdly expensive, I think. For such a proposal to be considered, the cost should be calculated and transparent. For example, what would be the development cost and production cost and integration cost for 15 ECR systems to be installed on Typhoon? A billion? One and a half billion? Two billion? Three billion? The first may be deemed a justifiable use of the defence budget. The last may be deemed an insane use of the defence budget.

[SiVisPacemParaBellum]

The doubts on the ECR version isnt if it is possibile, but at which cost.

I really dont see the German Taxpayer accepting to pay more money for the ECR version when the F-35 is cheaper.

Producing an ECR version would be absurdly expensive, I think. For such a proposal to be considered, the cost should be calculated and transparent. For example, what would be the development cost and production cost and integration cost for 15 ECR systems to be installed on Typhoon? A billion? One and a half billion? Two billion? Three billion? The first may be deemed a justifiable use of the defence budget. The last may be deemed an insane use of the defence budget.

They're planning to included it in the T5 order.
The price or how the T5 ECR might come out is totally unclear.
We'll find that out in the coming years.

[serge750]

The doubts on the ECR version isnt if it is possibile, but at which cost.

I really dont see the German Taxpayer accepting to pay more money for the ECR version when the F-35 is cheaper.

Producing an ECR version would be absurdly expensive, I think. For such a proposal to be considered, the cost should be calculated and transparent. For example, what would be the development cost and production cost and integration cost for 15 ECR systems to be installed on Typhoon? A billion? One and a half billion? Two billion? Three billion? The first may be deemed a justifiable use of the defence budget. The last may be deemed an insane use of the defence budget.

well they have said they will spend more to get to the 2% NATO target- so might be a good way to help acheave it.....

[SD67]

The claim that Eurofighter ECR will amount to a few pods being strapped to a couple existing airframe ist completely made up!
Just like Tornado ECR was a dedicated EW platform with all the EW gimmicks included the EF ECR will be dedicated new build full spectrum EW platforms.

Tornado ECR was modernized and upgraded less than a decade ago and provides the starting point for the EF development.
It's worth the cost even if only 20 ECR are produced as this will go on to serve as the foundation for developing FCAS EW capabilities as well.

What's the matter, you guys trying to make yourselves feel better about the UK airpower falling significantly behind Germany and France??

Cutting Tranche 1 without even partial replacements, only upgrading like 30-40 EF with Aesa radar even though the F-35 buy is being cut by almost 2/3 with a likely fleet of 50 and perhaps a dozen or two replacement over the program lifetime!!!

Looks pretty pathetic when matched up against it's nominal peers and even more so compared to Global Britains self-image!!!

Gtal I think we all welcome the prospect of Germany starting to take defence seriously again. I am not going to make jokes about broomsticks. There has been some serious mismanagement here around block obsolescence, partially driven by GW2 that skewed everything for a couple of decades. But terms like "pathetic" are inappropriate. We'll likely top out at 70-80 F35s which will make us about 2 in Europe. Just to note - neither Germany nor France have actually fielded a 5th gen fighter yet.

[Jensy]

Was just watching today's Defence Select Committee session. At 14:39:02 [and again at 14:56:50], Lieutenant General Rob Magowan notes that both "Tranche 2 and Tranche 3" Typhoons are to be "upgraded". Some of the money apparently coming from the Trance 1 retirement.

https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Ind ... e8acb8fe1b

What exactly he means by "upgraded" is not clear but thought it was interesting. Though I'd hope for less than the c.£30m per aircraft, for ECRS Mk 2 installation, previously quoted.

[Jensy]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ify%20wall

Behind a paywall, but:

German Chancellor Olaf Scholz is unlikely to agree to a fresh request by Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan to buy Eurofighter Typhoon jets, as tensions simmer over a number of issues including Turkey’s condemnation of Israel.

Erdogan will probably ask Scholz at a meeting in Berlin on Friday to lift a block on the sale of the fighter planes he needs to refresh an aging airforce, according to Turkish officials familiar with the matter. Germany produces the Eurofighter in a consortium with three other countries.

[new guy]

Was just watching today's Defence Select Committee session. At 14:39:02 [and again at 14:56:50], Lieutenant General Rob Magowan notes that both "Tranche 2 and Tranche 3" Typhoons are to be "upgraded". Some of the money apparently coming from the Trance 1 retirement.

https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Ind ... e8acb8fe1b

What exactly he means by "upgraded" is not clear but thought it was interesting. Though I'd hope for less than the c.£30m per aircraft, for ECRS Mk 2 installation, previously quoted.

Fully upgrading tranche 2 and 3 Typhoon to the new spec with Radar 2 would be a big step in the right direction...

I very much doubt they will, I would be surprised if more than 30 odd tranche 3 jets get radar 2.

The high price for the radar 2 is probably down to the comparatively small number ordered unfortunately.

As we've discussed before, the glacial pace of development, integration and fielding (2030), will probably mean that Tempest pre production aircraft are flying with a radar that's a generation on, before the long anticipated ' Radar 2' even gets into service!

[tomuk]

The select committee session with the Def Secretary was interesting regards Typhoon. He said that a route was available to get the Saudi order sorted out but was very coy as to what it was. It sounded as though negotiations were at a delicate point.
Is there a quid pro quo to be had with Germany. We let them into GCAP if they let the Typhoon orders go ahead or is the reported Turkish interest for a German Typhoon sale key?

[SW1]

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 023-11-16/

Turkey now formally asking for 40 typhoon

[Jensy]

The select committee session with the Def Secretary was interesting regards Typhoon. He said that a route was available to get the Saudi order sorted out but was very coy as to what it was. It sounded as though negotiations were at a delicate point.
Is there a quid pro quo to be had with Germany. We let them into GCAP if they let the Typhoon orders go ahead or is the reported Turkish interest for a German Typhoon sale key?

I think coy is very much his style. Seemed convinced he could bin the Chinook order too, "depending on the cancellation price".

As for Turkey, I thought we were leading on it rather than Germany. Which seemed counterintuitive considering the century plus of close German-Turkish relations

I wonder if the TAI KAAN is proving more troublesome in development than has been made public. Particularly around the powerplant.

[tomuk]

The select committee session with the Def Secretary was interesting regards Typhoon. He said that a route was available to get the Saudi order sorted out but was very coy as to what it was. It sounded as though negotiations were at a delicate point.
Is there a quid pro quo to be had with Germany. We let them into GCAP if they let the Typhoon orders go ahead or is the reported Turkish interest for a German Typhoon sale key?

I think coy is very much his style. Seemed convinced he could bin the Chinook order too, "depending on the cancellation price".

As for Turkey, I thought we were leading on it rather than Germany. Which seemed counterintuitive considering the century plus of close German-Turkish relations

I wonder if the TAI KAAN is proving more troublesome in development than has been made public. Particularly around the powerplant.

I understand what you say about Shapps but compared to his relative openness through the session I thought his reticence on the Typhoon question was notable.

On Germany\Turkey there seems to lots of briefing that Typhoon orders are a key element of Erdogan's visit to Germany today\tomorrow.

[Jensy]

Fully upgrading tranche 2 and 3 Typhoon to the new spec with Radar 2 would be a big step in the right direction...

I very much doubt they will, I would be surprised if more than 30 odd tranche 3 jets get radar 2.

The high price for the radar 2 is probably down to the comparatively small number ordered unfortunately.

As we've discussed before, the glacial pace of development, integration and fielding (2030), will probably mean that Tempest pre production aircraft are flying with a radar that's a generation on, before the long anticipated ' Radar 2' even gets into service!

Nearly every radar related woe with Typhoon reflects one or more of the issues with the wider programme/partnership: endless delays / narrow national self interest / partners unwilling to pay their fair share.

I understand what you say about Shapps but compared to his relative openness through the session I thought his reticence on the Typhoon question was notable.

On Germany\Turkey there seems to lots of briefing that Typhoon orders are a key element of Erdogan's visit to Germany today\tomorrow.

40 Typhoons for Turkey plus the Saudi order and I suspect the other partners are going to start getting rather irritated at the Germans.

Almost at the point where I'd start making contingencies for the German industrial contribution/work share.

[inch]

Well I'm sure Germany's pal France are ready and willing to let both parties have lots of rafale ,and being best pals the German government are happy to let France have the sale's to keep France sweet for their joint upcoming FCAS

[SD67]

Fully upgrading tranche 2 and 3 Typhoon to the new spec with Radar 2 would be a big step in the right direction...

I very much doubt they will, I would be surprised if more than 30 odd tranche 3 jets get radar 2.

The high price for the radar 2 is probably down to the comparatively small number ordered unfortunately.

As we've discussed before, the glacial pace of development, integration and fielding (2030), will probably mean that Tempest pre production aircraft are flying with a radar that's a generation on, before the long anticipated ' Radar 2' even gets into service!

Nearly every radar related woe with Typhoon reflects one or more of the issues with the wider programme/partnership: endless delays / narrow national self interest / partners unwilling to pay their fair share.

I understand what you say about Shapps but compared to his relative openness through the session I thought his reticence on the Typhoon question was notable.

On Germany\Turkey there seems to lots of briefing that Typhoon orders are a key element of Erdogan's visit to Germany today\tomorrow.

40 Typhoons for Turkey plus the Saudi order and I suspect the other partners are going to start getting rather irritated at the Germans.

Almost at the point where I'd start making contingencies for the German industrial contribution/work share.

Almost? That point was reached a decade ago. Somebody needs to call time on this nonsense. Sing the deal and dare Olaf to block it.
The Industrial Leaders in Germany can buy and sell politicians for chump change.

[SD67]

The select committee session with the Def Secretary was interesting regards Typhoon. He said that a route was available to get the Saudi order sorted out but was very coy as to what it was. It sounded as though negotiations were at a delicate point.
Is there a quid pro quo to be had with Germany. We let them into GCAP if they let the Typhoon orders go ahead or is the reported Turkish interest for a German Typhoon sale key?

Yes because that would be really smart. Screw up my program and then if you promise to be nice I'll let you into the next program .
Until you change your mind and screw up that program. JUst sign the GCAP agreement this year and stop wasting time with these people. Poland and the Scandi countries are our core partners in Europe

[Spitfire9]

On Germany\Turkey there seems to lots of briefing that Typhoon orders are a key element of Erdogan's visit to Germany today\tomorrow.

Apparently Erdogan made a speech including use of the word 'holocaust' although he spoke in Turkish so may not have used that word. He also described Israel as a terrorist state. I am not sure when he made the speech.



A confrontation with Scholz over Israel bombing Gaza...



My contacts on a Turkish aviation site report no news regarding supply of Typhoon being discussed during Erdogan's visit.

[inch]

I'm thinking that Germany are not going to allow New typhoons to be sold to any new country, could be wrong but that's just the way it seems to be going,and unless some new government gets in I can't see that changing , like people have said lot's of times, thank goodness we not doing GCAP with them