Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 6209
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

I actually see the Finns going with SAABs offer, as it will in all likelihood create a single configuration Gripen fleet, with matching AEW&C. With access to the technology the Swedes glean from TEMPEST to embody in their Gripen E/F, then they Finns still get the cutting edge capability and substantial workshare with not just a Final Assembly Line but the manufacture of subassemblies for both countries and any further exports. I cannot see any of the other bidders being able to match this.

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 15912
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Lord Jim wrote:I actually see the Finns going with SAABs offer, as it will in all likelihood create a single configuration Gripen fleet, with matching AEW&C. With access to the technology the Swedes glean from TEMPEST to embody in their Gripen E/F, then they Finns still get the cutting edge capability and substantial workshare
I just love the 'creschendo' that the local Finnish defence sites (perhaps with some lobbying finance behind them :lol: ) are going into, about this :D
- anyone who might have a different opinion (err, facts) is cut out, without delay
= the End Game, I mean for the lobbyist: no win, no (further) pay :mrgreen:
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Online
dmereifield
Senior Member
Posts: 2544
Joined: 03 Aug 2016, 20:29
United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by dmereifield »

Perhaps the offer of local assembly won't be for the full order? Perhaps a dozen or aonwill be built in Warton with the remainder built in Finland?

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 15912
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Build, or assemble?

With the Hornets, for other than the two-seaters, mainly the build there
- now, you could see (were it to be the SH) , those built in-situ and the Growlers in the main plant

For the other bidders?
- Saab; x-border assembly
- SH/Growler. as per above
- Typhoon... that new offer

F-35 & the Frenchie...pls tell me
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Defiance
Donator
Posts: 736
Joined: 07 Oct 2015, 20:52
United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Defiance »

Jensy wrote:Fair enough, "desperate" might have been a tad glib.
I do get your point though
Jensy wrote:For c.64 jets industrial offsets seem to offer more to Finnish industry than setting up a fifth Eurofighter production line (already one of the greatest inefficiencies in the programme). The offerings from RR and Leonardo with ECRS 2 could be far more valuable for a country that procures combat aircraft at 30 year intervals.
They'll probably be closer to assembly kits to be put together than true assembly, sort of like the Hawks that ended up going to Saudi Arabia.
Jensy wrote:Finland is a technologically advanced country with a capable defence industry, they don't need the kudos from local production that other, less confident, buyers might. Having ownership of MRO and upgrade work has been reported as being highly valued by them. These are the areas where Eurofighter can demonstrate its strength.
Suppose it's more to do with giving local industry even more insight of the platform to aid the sovereignty and freedom of operation aspects of the platform. The points you discussed are likely to be central to the deal too.
Jensy wrote:Despite all this, until recently my assumption was that F-35 had it in the bag, due to the 'deep strike' emphasis. Even with a few months of negative headlines I think they're still the favourite, with Gripen bringing the value/local option. At present, Typhoon and Boeing's hybrid offer still appear some distance behind.
They might not have a true emphasis on deep-strike. They may want to have some capability to destroy targets at range as a bit of a deterrent to the Russians (JASSM does this quite well) but their primary focus is defensive operations. That is likely the angle Typhoon will be pushing quite heavily compared to F-35.

IMO F-35 and the relationship with Uncle Sam is too big to pass up. If Typhoon is a true contender then the Super Hornet bid also is
Jensy wrote:P.S: Did Rafale officially drop out, or just withdraw any serious effort?
Not sure but they don't get talked about very often anymore. F-35/Typhoon/Gripen are the ones more commonly discussed.

SD67
Member
Posts: 329
Joined: 23 Jul 2019, 09:49
United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by SD67 »

Jensy wrote:Offering final assembly would suggest that Warton is going to be very quiet from the final Qatari delivery until the mid 2030s. Not sure how that fits in with the 'prosperity agenda'...
Back of the envelope - let's assume 10 units per year minimum output

Production for Qatar is due to start in 2022, 24 units so let's say 2025ish completion

In terms of workshare production there's :
38 for Germany
+ Spain ?
+ Switzerland ?
so at least 2030.

In a perfect world regardless of what happens with Finland there should be a definitive batch 4 for the RAF in the early 2030s, to de risk Tempest technologies keep Wharton in business and replace the T1s

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 15912
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

SD67 wrote:+ Spain ?
isn't that one in the bag (I might be imagining that there was an announcement)
SD67 wrote:and replace the T1s
which will be going in 2025
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Defiance
Donator
Posts: 736
Joined: 07 Oct 2015, 20:52
United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Defiance »

SD67 wrote: In a perfect world regardless of what happens with Finland there should be a definitive batch 4 for the RAF in the early 2030s, to de risk Tempest technologies keep Wharton in business and replace the T1s
Unless they decide to either cannibalise earlier T2 aircraft or limit de-risking activities to a handful of IPA aircraft (plus the 757 test-bed), I wouldn't neccesarily call a batch 4 definitive at the point. Remember Germany is pursing this route as they have no immediate alternative until 2040.

I'd love another batch of Typhoon for sure but I just don't see it

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 2674
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

If your looking at deliveries in the early 2030s they would be expecting to see the early examples of the manned aircraft element out of the tempest program arriving in that time frame.

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 6209
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

A lot of the T2s are already on ice with the Typhoon OCU now using mainly single seaters and simulator time, and this has been found to be a very effective combination. Some do exist but any additional Typhoons would be to bring the fleet up to seven frontline Squadrons as was the original target.

But ideally before any new orders we need to get all out existing Typhoons up to Tranche 3 standard and fitted with the AESA radar. We also need to have an ongoing spiral upgrade programme, like what the Swedes intend to do with their Gripen, to introduce new technologies that emerge from the TEMPEST programme, to both add capabilities to the Typhoon and de-risk such technologies for TEMPEST. The idea would be to maintain a common fleets even if a Tranche 4 were ordered for the RAF.

Commonality must also be maintained to a certain extent with the F-35 fleet, especially with weapon systems, do Typhoon should definitely be integrated with SPEAR 3 and the FC/ASW when they enter service. This would also apply to any "Loyal Wingman" platforms that are adopted as well.

SD67
Member
Posts: 329
Joined: 23 Jul 2019, 09:49
United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by SD67 »

I'd really like to see a breakdown of the entire Typhoon fleet by service status and hours used.

Maybe I'm a pessimist but 2030 seems like a danger year with Tempest not in production yet, Typhoon getting tired and F35 fleet basically just large enough to support the carriers.

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 15912
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

SD67 wrote:Typhoon getting tired
Is it that the oldest planes constantly being chopped (sometimes even :) brought back) is a reflection of hours of the uptodate airframes being husbanded?
- flog the others 'to death' in the first place
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Anthony58
Member
Posts: 30
Joined: 14 Feb 2021, 19:23
United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Anthony58 »

Surprised if Tempest IOC is pre 2040, add a few years on it. The only fast jet programme, with existing jets, on time and budget is the Super Hornet. A sensible proposition is additional batch of Typhoons, following the Qatar order from 2025, to maintain the current force levels, till replaced by Tempest. Typhoon for home defence, will be likely to remain in service post 2050.

SD67 dream on, that info will not be revealed.

topman
Member
Posts: 564
Joined: 07 May 2015, 20:56
Tokelau

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by topman »

SD67 wrote:I'd really like to see a breakdown of the entire Typhoon fleet by service status and hours used.

Maybe I'm a pessimist but 2030 seems like a danger year with Tempest not in production yet, Typhoon getting tired and F35 fleet basically just large enough to support the carriers.

Put a FOI request, you never know.

Defiance
Donator
Posts: 736
Joined: 07 Oct 2015, 20:52
United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Defiance »

topman wrote: Put a FOI request, you never know.
That information will be classified. Why on earth would we ever publish how knackered or not our aircraft are?

SD67
Member
Posts: 329
Joined: 23 Jul 2019, 09:49
United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by SD67 »

Maybe so the taxpayer can make informed choices and politicians can be held accountable for scimping on defence. I'm assuming that our enemies already have this information

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 15912
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

topman wrote:
SD67 wrote:I'd really like to see a breakdown of the entire Typhoon fleet by service status and hours used.

Maybe I'm a pessimist but 2030 seems like a danger year with Tempest not in production yet, Typhoon getting tired and F35 fleet basically just large enough to support the carriers.

Put a FOI request, you never know.
Service status is given (after the fact) in the RAF total inventory updates. As for the latter part, the answer would read like this:
"We do hold recorded information on the flying hours for each of the UK's xyz airframes. However, Section 26(1) b of the Act provides that we should withhold information which would be likely to prejudice the capability, effectiveness or security of relevant forces. The Act requires that we have to carry out a public interest (PIT) in this respect to show that the reasons for withholding the information outweigh the reasons for releasing the information. Even a limited disclosure of the flying hours accumulated across the Sentry fleet would provide a reasonable level of overall understanding of the level of Sentry activity. As a small amount of information has previously been released for Sentry flying hours the public interest in further disclosure of flying hours for each airframe is therefore limited. To release the flying hours for each individual airframe could indicate how many flying hours the aircraft may have left in the airframe design life which would provide potential and actual enemies with information about our capabilities and therefore a tactical advantage to our enemies. There remains a very strong public interest in preserving the RAF's ability to defend the UK and its interests abroad through the effectiveness of its airpower and by withholding tactical information that could aid a potential or actual enemy. "
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Defiance
Donator
Posts: 736
Joined: 07 Oct 2015, 20:52
United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Defiance »

SD67 wrote:Maybe so the taxpayer can make informed choices and politicians can be held accountable for scimping on defence. I'm assuming that our enemies already have this information
Get a grip, I admire your optimism but there are certain things the public cannot know and rightly so. As a taxpayer I don't want to waste some civil servant (or military officers) time to produce a letter that politely tells you to get stuffed.

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 2674
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

Not sure it’s as much of an issue as is implied in the question.

From open source information you can work out a rough enough figure of what’s going one these a couple of years old but gd enough

Fleet dispositions

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... crafts.pdf

Yearly flight hours

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... sthrough=1

Defiance
Donator
Posts: 736
Joined: 07 Oct 2015, 20:52
United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Defiance »

SW1 wrote:Not sure it’s as much of an issue as is implied in the question.

From open source information you can work out a rough enough figure of what’s going one these a couple of years old but gd enough

Fleet dispositions

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... crafts.pdf

Yearly flight hours

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... sthrough=1
If you (and the OP) are happy with those figures then crack on. You can see the power of Google rather than needing to fire off a FOI for every passing fancy.

What they definitely will not give you is "a breakdown of the entire Typhoon fleet by service status and hours used" - those figures are significantly more particular and sensitive.

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 15912
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

SW1 wrote: Yearly flight hours

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... sthrough=1
Not just that older tranches 'fall off',
also 'miracles' happen, like a refurb/ LEP adding 5000 hrs to the life of any such that are put thru the process
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 2674
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

Defiance wrote:
SW1 wrote:Not sure it’s as much of an issue as is implied in the question.

From open source information you can work out a rough enough figure of what’s going one these a couple of years old but gd enough

Fleet dispositions

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... crafts.pdf

Yearly flight hours

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... sthrough=1
If you (and the OP) are happy with those figures then crack on. You can see the power of Google rather than needing to fire off a FOI for every passing fancy.

What they definitely will not give you is "a breakdown of the entire Typhoon fleet by service status and hours used" - those figures are significantly more particular and sensitive.
Personally I’m not bothered but thought sd67 seemed interested

SD67
Member
Posts: 329
Joined: 23 Jul 2019, 09:49
United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by SD67 »

SW1 wrote:Not sure it’s as much of an issue as is implied in the question.

From open source information you can work out a rough enough figure of what’s going one these a couple of years old but gd enough

Fleet dispositions

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... crafts.pdf

Yearly flight hours

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... sthrough=1
SW1 wrote:
Defiance wrote:
SW1 wrote:Not sure it’s as much of an issue as is implied in the question.

From open source information you can work out a rough enough figure of what’s going one these a couple of years old but gd enough

Fleet dispositions

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... crafts.pdf

Yearly flight hours

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... sthrough=1
If you (and the OP) are happy with those figures then crack on. You can see the power of Google rather than needing to fire off a FOI for every passing fancy.

What they definitely will not give you is "a breakdown of the entire Typhoon fleet by service status and hours used" - those figures are significantly more particular and sensitive.
Personally I’m not bothered but thought sd67 seemed interested
Brilliant thanks for the links !

FYI I think FOIs are a total waste of time unless it's exposing some kind of corruption

User avatar
Jensy
Member
Posts: 548
Joined: 05 Aug 2016, 19:44
United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Jensy »

For any Prime Video subscribers, I watched this last night:

Image

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/video/detai ... share_cu_r

From 1992, with lots of contemporary footage of Warton, Farnborough, the EAP and the yet unnamed 'Eurofighter'. The political and industrial angles of the time, especially with Germany and France certainly have relevance to where we are now.

Also, some very interesting perspectives "looking forward to 2020" and on the proliferation of ex-Soviet hardware, in particular the MiG-29 and Su-27.

As a bonus, there's a (rather rustic) CGI of a delta wing, future stealth aircraft over the credits that seems to have a ancestral look of what later became Replica and eventually the early concepts designs of Tempest:

Image

Defiance
Donator
Posts: 736
Joined: 07 Oct 2015, 20:52
United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Defiance »

That graphic dates back to 2018, it came out around the same time as the Tempest concept got revealed

Post Reply