Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
Timmymagic
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Timmymagic »

Project Quadriga on the way...38 Typhoon Tranche 3 for the Luftwaffe. Bundestag has given the go ahead.

Google translation..

#FaktenZumHaushalt: We procure 38 #Eurofighter the latest generation. Today the #Haushaltsausschuss given the green light by the German Bundestag. The aircraft will be delivered to the #Bundeswehr delivered. For a modern and sustainable #Luftwaffe !


Timmymagic
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Timmymagic »

Wasn't clear earlier but this is actually for 33 firm orders and 5 options. The 33 is made up of 26 single seat and 7 2 seater's. Bit of a surprise as the 2 seaters were thought to be increasingly anachronistic with synthetic training taking over.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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Interesting chart here from Gareth Jennings. The Spanish figure is much higher than expected. We know the Spanish are looking to get 20 Typhoon to replace their oldest EF-18 in the Canaries. But this implies a much larger buy (probably over a period of time) to replace ALL of their EF-18 fleet (which totals 91 aircraft) with Typhoon. Their 19 Tranche 1 aircraft are also receiving an upgrade.

The Saudi order of an additional 48 still appears to be in play (and that has gone awful quiet, but apparently BAE are still mentioning it on analysts calls). But nothing about the potential Egyptian order of 24 listed. The German 'potential' is in addition to the 33+5 for Quadriga. Seems like Airbus isn't giving up on the EW version and B-61 integration after all. No mention of the potential Austria to Indonesia swap.

Just wish the UK government ordered another 24 T3's to keep the UK line open...and commit to the AESA on the Tranche 2's..

Just a thought but if Eurofighter actually built the EW version I suspect the Italian's and possibly the UK could be tempted. Could even get some more elsewhere, perhaps Saudi.


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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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Timmymagic wrote:thought to be increasingly anachronistic
There are other uses for two-seaters; perhaps they want to play with the fortcoming 'loyal wingman' - indeed several of them in one go. And thus experimenting before the nxt-gen fighter arrives.
- in this kind of constellation, given that sensors are getting more sophisticated and long-range missiles ever-more capable, there is an argument for the added second crew member to manage the data overload in order to exercise oversight of autonomous units, and get the best out of them within the broader mission envelope

Also, if
Timmymagic wrote: Airbus isn't giving up on the EW version and B-61 integration
a two-seater could come in handy - for one or the other of those two uses
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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Timmymagic wrote:Just a thought but if Eurofighter actually built the EW version I suspect the Italian's and possibly the UK could be tempted. Could even get some more elsewhere, perhaps Saudi.
Both the UK and Italy have the F-35 for offensive EW, and the Typhoon already has a pretty good EW suite and there are further improvements in the pipeline continuously.

Using the Two seater for baby sitting Loyal Wing Men is an interesting idea but would be expensive to rework them, especially for the RAF which has most of its Twin Sticks in storage with very few remaining on the flight line including that of the OCU.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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Lord Jim wrote:Both the UK and Italy have the F-35 for offensive EW, and the Typhoon already has a pretty good EW suite and there are further improvements in the pipeline continuously.
We're not going to have many of them and the capability offered by F-35 as an offensive EW platform is nowhere near that offered by a dedicated platform like EA-18G or a developed Typhoon ECR. That is unless someone hangs the NGJ under the wings of F-35 (and then we get into the ability of it to be used effectively with 1 crewman, which it appears no-one believes is credible at present). There's a reason why the USN and RAAF are buying EA-18G, despite being large purchasers of F-35 variants, they're not just buying them to enhance the capability of their 'legacy' fleets for a few years.

Also as a coalition partner the increase to NATO's combat capability of a fleet of 72 Typhoon ECR in Europe (24 each from Germany. Italy and the UK) would be huge. The ability of Europe's large fleets of 'legacy' non-LO aircraft to continue to be effective would be vastly increased.
Lord Jim wrote:Using the Two seater for baby sitting Loyal Wing Men is an interesting idea but would be expensive to rework them, especially for the RAF which has most of its Twin Sticks in storage with very few remaining on the flight line including that of the OCU.
That's where the 2 seat ECR version comes in. The rear seat is totally re-worked as an operators station, rather than as an instructors seat. Given that the majority of roles of unmanned wingmen at present appears to be for reconaissance or electronic warfare it makes a near perfect match with an ECR platform.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

No one actually knows the real EW capabilities, at least in public, but what has been hinted at it is revolutionary compared to how EW has been carried out up till now. The EF-18Gs are very effective platforms there is no denying that. If the F-35 is as effective as has been hinted t, NATO will have a very formidable EW force, given the total number that will be in service.

As for a two seat Typhoon ECR, of course it is possible though I think both new build and conversion from trainers would probably be very expensive, one of the reasons many nations do not use dedicated ECR platforms, but instead give each platform a decent EW/ECM capability.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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Lord Jim wrote:No one actually knows the real EW capabilities, at least in public, but what has been hinted at it is revolutionary compared to how EW has been carried out up till now. The EF-18Gs are very effective platforms there is no denying that. If the F-35 is as effective as has been hinted t, NATO will have a very formidable EW force, given the total number that will be in service.
I've no doubt that the F-35 will have a potent EW capability. But you can't beat raw power and size in EW, you only have to look at the scale of the EA-18G's NGJ pods to see that they are going to provide a huge amount more capability than an F-35's internal systems will be capable of (the NGJ is also newer than the F-35's EW suite).

I've no real hope in the UK government doing the smart thing and getting together with the Germans and Italians and building it though...pity as it would get the RAF a capability that it has lacked for some time (believe it or not the Tornado F.3 in its later years had the potential to be an exceptional Wild Weasel with ALARM as its RWR suite was very good). It would add some additional years to the production lines of all 3 countries as it would definitely have to be a new build.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Ron5 »

Has the RAF ever had a dedicated EW aircraft?

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Jensy »

Ron5 wrote:Has the RAF ever had a dedicated EW aircraft?
Short answer: nope not since 100 Squadron stood down their Lancasters, Liberators and Mosquitos at the end of the War.

Slightly longer answer: some Vickers Valiants were designated ECM aircraft and carried "American APT-16A and ALT-7 jamming transmitters, Airborne Cigar and Carpet jammers, APR-4 and APR-9 'sniffing' receivers, and chaff dispensers". Of course this was all done to production bomber and photo reconnaissance aircraft, rather than factory built EW aircraft.

Photo of Valiant WP214 which was extensively modified for the EW role (photo from the wonderful 'Thunder and Lightnings' site):

Image

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

We did have a training EW/ECM unit, 360 Squadron, operating Canberra T17s from RAF Wyton until 1994, but that was to train our Pilots to operate in a hostile EW/ECM environment as well as train out GBAD units. Probably the ugliest version of teh Canberra though.
https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2020/03/0 ... a-t-mk-17/

As for dedicated EW units, we the USAF doesn't have any fast jet platforms anymore either, relying on USN Squadrons but providing some aircrew. I do not think they are actually joint squadrons.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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https://www.meggitt.com/news/meggitt-pl ... ghter-jet/

Meggitt PLC, a leading international company specialising in high performance components and subsystems for the aerospace, defence, and selected energy markets, has secured a £4.2 million contract with BAE Systems for the supply of innovative nose radome technology to enable the effective operation of a pioneering Multi-Function Array radar system on the Typhoon.

The UK has committed to developing game-changing technologies which will equip RAF Typhoons with a world-leading electronic warfare capability, in addition to traditional radar functions, including wide band electronic attack. BAE Systems and Leonardo are on contract to deliver the European Common Radar Systems Mk 2 (ECRS Mk 2) which equips RAF pilots with the ability to locate, identify and suppress enemy air defences using high-powered jamming.

As part of this programme, Meggitt has used its advanced composite expertise to design a new higher and broader bandwidth radome to protect the instrumentation from environmental effects, prevent electromagnetic interference whilst being aerodynamically stable and highly transmissive for the AESA radar system’s operational modes.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by bobp »

Good news to hear that things are moving on the new radar.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by shark bait »

Timmymagic wrote:Just wish the UK government ordered another 24 T3's
Tranche 4 now, keep up :D
Timmymagic wrote:But you can't beat raw power and size in EW
An engineer from Leonardo, promoting BriteCloud, told me the state of the art gave up on this point of view in the 2000's. He then bamboozled me with stuff I pretended to understand at the time, the gist of it was they get far greater returns from a high fidelity system then from a powerful system, and the effect is exaggerated for airborne systems.
@LandSharkUK

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

shark bait wrote:the gist of it was they get far greater returns from a high fidelity system then from a powerful system
The physical limits (front cone; just check by how much the Tornado's nose grew by when they tried to put Tomcat-like power in there) for the latter are more tangible, too.
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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https://www.mtdmfg.com/news/bae-systems ... air-force/

BAE Systems has been awarded a £1.3bn order to support the production of 38 Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft for the German Air Force.

Work will commence in 2021 at BAE Systems’ sites in Lancashire, maintaining continuity of Typhoon production through to the mid-2020s and sustaining high-value engineering roles in the North of England. These critical jobs are a key element of securing the UK’s sovereign skills and capabilities which are central to realising the Government’s future combat air ambitions.

More than 5,000 BAE Systems employees directly support the Typhoon programme in the UK, supporting a further 10,000 jobs in the UK economy as a whole.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

SW1 wrote:through to the mid-2020s
Great news
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Timmymagic »

SW1 wrote:BAE Systems has been awarded a £1.3bn order to support the production of 38 Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft for the German Air Force.
What's is intriguing about the order is that they've immediately exercised the Option of 5 on top of the 33. But also that its made up of 30 single seaters and 8 twin seaters.

The other good news is that it includes 3 IPA aircraft. These are necesary so that the manufacturers have Typhoon of the latest standard in order to develop future capabilities and get the most out of them. Consider these an investment in the future as well. The UK may need to do something similar (although the UK IPA aircraft are already to a higher standard than the current German ones) or at least do significant re-builds for the Radar 2 equipped Tranche 3 aircraft.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by bobp »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Great news
Indeed keep the line open for a while. Hope the UK orders another batch of the latest type as well.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Defiance »

bobp wrote:Indeed keep the line open for a while. Hope the UK orders another batch of the latest type as well.
Part of the line, only the bits that get shipped out overseas

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by bobp »

Defiance wrote:Part of the line, only
True. Rolls Royce getting some benefit with Engines as well.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by dmereifield »

Good stuff, still hoping for another order for UK build though....

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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dmereifield wrote:Good stuff, still hoping for another order for UK build though....
The Finnish H-X programme is probably (Saudi aside) the best hope to keep the Warton assembly line(s) running till the late 2020s. More than 60 aircraft to be built.

There's been some suggestion that other competitors are bundling platforms alongside their fighters. Saab offering a few Globaleye AEW&C, and Boeing reportedly including some Growlers with their Super Hornets.

Perhaps we should be including a few Hawk T2s in our offering in order to sweeten the deal? The Finnish AF already operate a large fleet of Hawks and there's a chance to save whatever will remain of the Hawk production line by 2025, for UK requirements or export.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by dmereifield »

Jensy wrote:
dmereifield wrote:Good stuff, still hoping for another order for UK build though....
The Finnish H-X programme is probably (Saudi aside) the best hope to keep the Warton assembly line(s) running till the late 2020s. More than 60 aircraft to be built.

There's been some suggestion that other competitors are bundling platforms alongside their fighters. Saab offering a few Globaleye AEW&C, and Boeing reportedly including some Growlers with their Super Hornets.

Perhaps we should be including a few Hawk T2s in our offering in order to sweeten the deal? Already a large fleet of Hawks and a chance to save whatever will remain of the Hawk production line by 2025.
Fingers crossed

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Jensy wrote: Saab offering a few Globaleye AEW&C, and Boeing reportedly including some Growlers with their Super Hornets.

Those were not thrown in as a splurge ('buy all of our range') but rather to get 'full points' for being able to complete three mission scenarios - which have not been published - but most likely Globaleye is for making most of defensive sorties against numerically superior attacking force; and Growlers for offensive counter-air... that would be just two of three, but essentially v different mission scenarios, also informing what weapon sets should be included in pricing the final bid.
Jensy wrote: a chance to save whatever will remain of the Hawk production line by 2025.
Well, not counting the 18 later additions, the Hawk fleet was created "with four British-built aircraft, followed by 46 assembled by Patria in Finland. In 1993, the Finnish Air Force ordered an additional batch of seven Hawk Mk 51As."... of course any parts for the assembly would catch some of the value add, but likely that train has left the station (so trying to get onto it is rather hard).
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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