Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

There is not way we should be selling Meteor to any country that is not a close ally.
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by SD67 »

According to BAE's latest annual report, the current backlog is

5 for Kuwait - to be completed 2022
Around 24 for Qatar - Seem to be building around 8 per year so that takes it out to 2024
38 for Quadriga - to be delivered by 2025

Then announced but not contracted :
Germany ECR - 15

Projected :
Spain - 28?

That takes it to 2027/8 at best with minimum production levels. There really needs to a be an RAF/Italy batch 4 around 2027-8 as lead in to Tempest, de risk some of the new technologies maintain manufacturing skills and sustain the RAF fleet numbers.

Where will the money come from? Well F35 "first 47" deliveries will be complete in 2025. Projected total purchase is "around 60". They're currently being delivered at 8-10 per year. So that means by 2027 there should be that budget line available. Just my hunch
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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SD67 wrote: 19 Apr 2022, 21:33 According to BAE's latest annual report, the current backlog is

5 for Kuwait - to be completed 2022
Around 24 for Qatar - Seem to be building around 8 per year so that takes it out to 2024
38 for Quadriga - to be delivered by 2025

Then announced but not contracted :
Germany ECR - 15

Projected :
Spain - 28?

That takes it to 2027/8 at best with minimum production levels. There really needs to a be an RAF/Italy batch 4 around 2027-8 as lead in to Tempest, de risk some of the new technologies maintain manufacturing skills and sustain the RAF fleet numbers.

Where will the money come from? Well F35 "first 47" deliveries will be complete in 2025. Projected total purchase is "around 60". They're currently being delivered at 8-10 per year. So that means by 2027 there should be that budget line available. Just my hunch
It wouldn't surprise me to learn that any remaining scope for funding will be (re-)directed to Mosquito/LANCA/VIXEN etc.

As Ukraine is learning at present, combat aircraft are not something that can be procured easily or quickly.

If you don't build them when there's an active domestic line, then you're beholden to other country's industry and politicians.

Assuming BAE wishes to continue assembling Typhoons at Warton, I'm curious what the flyaway cost would be now for a Tranche 3 aircraft with the Leonardo ECRS-Mk.2.
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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I dont understand how "other" countries can afford to operate the Trance 1 Typhoons but the RAF and UK MOD say we cannot and they should be scrapped.

It shows the serious f----- up decision making process in the RAF and UK MOD .. insanity.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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TheLoneRanger wrote: 20 Apr 2022, 10:50 I dont understand how "other" countries can afford to operate the Trance 1 Typhoons but the RAF and UK MOD say we cannot and they should be scrapped.
..'Other countries' don't have the same level of spending commitments that the UK has.

No Tempest programme
No Aircraft Carriers
No Nuclear deterrent
No Overseas bases

etc,etc,etc.

Its not an Apples to Oranges comparison.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

Do we know for certain which and how many RAF Typhoons will receive the new ECRS Mk2? Will this programme also bring the new Cockpit displays? Or are we following our historical path and only doing the bear minimum allowing our fleets to fall behind those of other nations by design.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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Lord Jim wrote: 20 Apr 2022, 12:58 Do we know for certain which and how many RAF Typhoons will receive the new ECRS Mk2? Will this programme also bring the new Cockpit displays? Or are we following our historical path and only doing the bear minimum allowing our fleets to fall behind those of other nations by design.
You'd have to be very brave to bet against option B, LOL

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Timmymagic »

Lord Jim wrote: 20 Apr 2022, 12:58 Do we know for certain which and how many RAF Typhoons will receive the new ECRS Mk2? Will this programme also bring the new Cockpit displays? Or are we following our historical path and only doing the bear minimum allowing our fleets to fall behind those of other nations by design.
The 40 Tranche 3 are currently slated to receive it. Apparently the cockpit displays might also be included as they might be necessary to operate the radar and electronic attack functions.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by dmereifield »

Cooper wrote: 20 Apr 2022, 11:01
TheLoneRanger wrote: 20 Apr 2022, 10:50 I dont understand how "other" countries can afford to operate the Trance 1 Typhoons but the RAF and UK MOD say we cannot and they should be scrapped.
..'Other countries' don't have the same level of spending commitments that the UK has.

No Tempest programme
No Aircraft Carriers
No Nuclear deterrent
No Overseas bases

etc,etc,etc.

Its not an Apples to Oranges comparison.
True enough, but relatively speaking it should be much cheaper for us to maintain and operate them since our costs are diluted by the fact that we already operate a larger fleet of Typhoons and have all the logistics in place. The MoD/RAF should be provisioned with sufficient funds (and be able to manage said funds properly) to be able to keep them as part of the wider Typhoon fleet (in addition to having appropriate funds to meet the other requirements you state), especially given the current global climate.
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

Retaining the Tranche 1 aircraft will lead to a case of fleets within fleets and this will only get worse as new technology is incorporated into the later tranches. Trying to fund the incorporation of the ECRS Mk2 into the Tranche 2 aircraft must be a more immediate requirement. If we only update the Tranche 3 aircraft they are going to be from where the aircraft for operations will be taken from and they will be worked hard. Alternatively they will be kept mainly in storage with pilots training on the Tranche 2 aircraft and in the simulator. In my mind achieving the above should take precedence over further purchases of F-35s over the current 48 or so.
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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(Forces News) 9th April 2022
Air shows are coming back in 2022. Ahead of the busy year, we followed the newest Typhoon display pilot to see how the team puts a display together ready for the public.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Jensy »

Lord Jim wrote: 21 Apr 2022, 04:32 Retaining the Tranche 1 aircraft will lead to a case of fleets within fleets and this will only get worse as new technology is incorporated into the later tranches. Trying to fund the incorporation of the ECRS Mk2 into the Tranche 2 aircraft must be a more immediate requirement. If we only update the Tranche 3 aircraft they are going to be from where the aircraft for operations will be taken from and they will be worked hard. Alternatively they will be kept mainly in storage with pilots training on the Tranche 2 aircraft and in the simulator. In my mind achieving the above should take precedence over further purchases of F-35s over the current 48 or so.
Operating two types of Typhoon is definitely preferably to three types.

There are some physical and avionic modifications required for the 67 Tranche 2 aircraft, unlike the Tranche 3s. This is following the money already spent on integrating Meteor and Storm Shadow.

Refits are not cheap. The Japanese F-15J upgrade, which includes a new radar and weapons integration, is running at $90m per aircraft for a similar number of aircraft (68).

I would rather the Tranche 2s become the new 'Tier-2-fleet' (QRA, Falklands and Baltic Air Policing), and order 24 or so brand new Typhoons with the radar integrated to join the upgraded Tranche 3s.

Pure fantasy as I suspect, other than maybe a dozen F-35B, we'll be getting no new manned combat jets till Tempest (and even that's far from certain).

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Tempest414 »

For me the way forward should be to have 5 wings of 31 jets 3 Typhoon wings and 2 F-35 wings each wing would have 3 Squadrons with jets and ground support being allocated to units as needed. The 4 Jets in the Falkland would be T2 jets and there fall time with each of the Typhoon wings taking it in turns to send pilots and ground staff. The F-35 wings would have one full time Naval wing aiming to have 15 jets ready for the strike carrier and 6 to 8 jets for the other

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

So more than doubling the current fast jet fleet.

For me, as an alternative to what I said above, I would like to see the the F-35B fleet be no more than 60 aircraft, producing three front line Squadrons, an OCU and a small pool of attrition replacements all at Marham. Then for Typhoon I would like to see around 130 aircraft, split 50:50 between Tranches 2 and 3 with three frontline Squadrons at Leuchars and Leeming and two frontline and one OCU/OEU at Conningsby. The latter would require a small purchase of additional Tranche 3A, already fitted with the ECRS Mk2 and other parts of the upgrade the existing Tranche 3 aircraft are going through.

A lot of hope is being placed on TEMPEST, but it is going to be a large funding jump form the current assessment and development phase for subsystems, to that of actually developing an actual aircraft even after any savings from computer engineering are taken into account. How many actual aircraft we can afford to bring into service, at best, may only replace the existing Tranche 2 and 3 Typhoons. Costs may firther be increased by the number our partners purchase, which at present means only Italy, and Sweden is really only looking for further upgrades to its Gripen E and F aircraft.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Tempest414 »

Doubling the fast jet fleet where did you get that from

5 x 31 jets is 155 jets of which 96 would be Typhoon and 62 would be F-35


Current fleet is 160 jets with 24 more on order and maybe another 12 past that. Even after the T1 's have gone that will mean we will still have 156 + jets when all 48 F-35's are here

so for me we need to push for 120 Typhoons and 80 F-35 meaning we need plus 40 jets on what we have now
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by SD67 »

Lord Jim wrote: 22 Apr 2022, 10:35 So more than doubling the current fast jet fleet.

For me, as an alternative to what I said above, I would like to see the the F-35B fleet be no more than 60 aircraft, producing three front line Squadrons, an OCU and a small pool of attrition replacements all at Marham. Then for Typhoon I would like to see around 130 aircraft, split 50:50 between Tranches 2 and 3 with three frontline Squadrons at Leuchars and Leeming and two frontline and one OCU/OEU at Conningsby. The latter would require a small purchase of additional Tranche 3A, already fitted with the ECRS Mk2 and other parts of the upgrade the existing Tranche 3 aircraft are going through.

A lot of hope is being placed on TEMPEST, but it is going to be a large funding jump form the current assessment and development phase for subsystems, to that of actually developing an actual aircraft even after any savings from computer engineering are taken into account. How many actual aircraft we can afford to bring into service, at best, may only replace the existing Tranche 2 and 3 Typhoons. Costs may firther be increased by the number our partners purchase, which at present means only Italy, and Sweden is really only looking for further upgrades to its Gripen E and F aircraft.
Totally agree with your first paragraph.

On Tempest, not quite so pessimistic. If 40% + of the development cost is related to the power source and related thermal management and that is a 50/50 JV with Japan then the picture changes radically. I suspect Tempest and Japan's F-X will end up looking very very similar.

If all we get out of SAAB is access to their accelerated development tools and they get Gripen upgrades that's a fair trade IMHO.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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Jensy wrote: 21 Apr 2022, 18:12 I would rather the Tranche 2s become the new 'Tier-2-fleet' (QRA, Falklands and Baltic Air Policing), and order 24 or so brand new Typhoons with the radar integrated to join the upgraded Tranche 3s.

Pure fantasy as I suspect, other than maybe a dozen F-35B,
Agree with the thought, assuming that the EW upgrade in JSF is substantial in the Batch17 (that we wil be drawing the dirty dozen from).
- in case that is based on marketing speak (only), then shouldn't the brand new Typhoons be ECR? If they cost substantially more per piece, make the two dozen 15... where did I pull the latter figure :angel: from?
SD67 wrote: 24 Apr 2022, 09:14 I suspect Tempest and Japan's F-X will end up looking very very similar.
and firing the same A2A long-range weapon - currently the Americans are outranged by the air-breathing Chinese 'Meteor'.
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

As part of any response to the change in the global political situation, especially regarding Russia, I strongly believe the RAF should set about expanding the AESA radar upgrade to cover the Tranche 2 aircraft, bringing all aircraft up to the same standard. There would be both cost and operational benefits from such a move. I would also like ot see the acceleration of the SPEAR 3 programme including the EW version and its integration onto the Typhoon as a high priority. Until TEMPEST arrives, the Typhoon is going to be the RAFs main multirole platform as the F-35s are not going to be available in any number with their concentration on expeditionary operation off the Carriers. We need to get the maximum capability and usage out of our Typhoon fleet and avoid the old fleet within fleets situation that increases operating costs and increases the hours individual airframes go through as the pool of a specific standard are a limiting factor.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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ArmChairCivvy wrote: 22 May 2022, 14:09 and firing the same A2A long-range weapon - currently the Americans are outranged by the air-breathing Chinese 'Meteor'.
The Chinese don't field a ramjet air to air missile.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Well, the IISS 2018 (!) overview says this... and no one would be happier than me if the OpFor is falling behind):



PUBLICATION
The Military Balance 2018
February 2018

Pages: 7-9

Volume: 2018

Publisher: IISS


"The extent of Chinese progress in the air-to-air guided-weapons arena was apparent with the introduction of the PL-10 AAM. This weapon provided a marked improvement in performance over the previous generation of short-range missiles operated by the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF), and its development has placed China among the handful of nations with a defence-industrial base capable of producing such a weapon. The PL-10 uses aero­dynamic and thrust-vector control, but the PLAAF will require an advanced helmet-mounted cueing system in order to exploit the manoeuvrability the weapon offers. During 2018, a missile designated PL-15 may also begin to enter front-line service. the PL-10 and the PL-15 are not the only systems with which the US and its allies are having to come to terms. China is also developing a very-long-range AAM intended to be used to attack high-value targets such as tanker, airborne early-warning, and intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) aircraft. Furthermore, Beijing appears to be pursuing two or more configurations of rocket-ramjet AAMs.

By the early to mid-2020s, China will clearly have a broader – and far more capable – range of air-to-air weapons to complement the combat aircraft that are now in development. These will likely force the US and its regional allies to re-examine not only their tactics, techniques and procedures, but also the direction of their own combat-aerospace development programmes."

FAST FORWARD to
- which annoyingly, on the website, is not dated. But can anyone say they are making all of this up? https://www.globalsecurity.org/jhtml/jf ... pg|||PL-21
- they easily could be doing that. See formulations like "our country" and how verb tenses are mixed all along the way
- will leave it to others to say if they have caught up... or are only intending to do so

" The Pili-21 missile adopts the normal aerodynamic layout, that is, the wings are in the front and the rudder surface is behind. The advantage of this layout is that the rudder surface is farther from the center of gravity of the missile, so a smaller area of ??the rudder surface can be larger. Torque, thereby reducing the volume and weight of the missile. At the same time, because the wings are fixed, the washing effect on the rear rudder surface is small, and the aerodynamic performance is better. The disadvantage is that the missile’s engine is generally located in the middle and rear part, so The installation of the steering gear and the control system is limited. In addition, the lift generated by the wings is sometimes opposite to the lift generated by the rudder surface. The responsivness of the missile is poor, especially when the weight and volume of the missile itself are relatively large, so the Thunderbolt-21 A set of fixed winglets are added to the warhead, whose role is to improve the stability and maneuverability of the missile's full ballistic flight. The advanced engine and reliable aerodynamic layout only solve the problem of the missile's flight distance. In order to effectively attack the target, A sophisticated guidance system is also needed. Our country has mastered the technology of the composite guidance system for medium-range active radar-guided air-to-air missiles. Therefore, the guidance system of the Jili-21 air-to-air missile will definitely develop from this system. Subsonic speed is used to ensure the stability of the fuel. During this process, the temperature in the fuel chamber rises sharply due to aerodynamic work. Therefore, the speed of the ramjet generally does not exceed Mach 4, so the missile needs to fly for nearly 2 minutes to enter the terminal guidance. Stealth aircraft is quite unfavorable, so I think it is necessary to transplant the composite terminal guidance system technology developed for the Pili-21 for the Pili-12B air-to-air missile, which is to add a passive guidance system. The passive guidance system uses the opponent’s radar signal to guide. The signal is only reduced in one way and the radar power of the early warning aircraft is larger, so the detection range of the terminal guidance system can be expanded, thereby reducing the dependence on fighter guidance. The development of ramjet engines in China started early. Since the 1960s, it has started to develop the supersonic anti-ship missile Haiying-3 with ramjet engines . Since the 1990s, it has broken through the integrated ramjet technology and successfully developed integrated liquids. Ramjet and integral solid rocket ramjet, then which one is used by Pili-21? From the characteristics of the two engines, I think it is more likely to be an integral solid rocket motor. I said that solid rocket ramjet is The high temperature and rich combustion gas produced by the combustion of the oxygen-lean propellant in the gas generator is used as a powerful fire source for the ram afterburner, so the engine can work under a wide air-fuel ratio. When the external atmospheric conditions and flight attitude change, it will not cause flameout, so that the missile can work at a larger angle of attack, which increases the mobility of the missile. This is very valuable for air-to-air missiles that often need to change their flight trajectory. For the shortcomings of insufficient energy of solid rocket ramjets, the emergence of fuel-efficient high-metal content propellants makes up for this shortcoming, which is why solid rocket ramming is used The main reason why the engine's meteor missile can win the competition is that the air intake of the Pili-21 missile is located under the side of the projectile on both sides, and the air intake is swept back to increase the area of ??the air intake. The purpose is to improve the ability of the missile to pre-compress the airflow with the missile body under the condition of a large angle of attack, thereby reducing the airflow turbulence in the intake duct, improving the intake efficiency, and avoiding the change of the ramjet working state and flameout caused by the maneuvering of the missile. The successful development of the Pili-21 long-range air-to-air missile has greatly improved China’s air defense capabilities. In particular, the Chinese Air Force has the ability to attack key system nodes such as the other’s early warning aircraft , which can fundamentally weaken the opponent’s air combat system and even the entire combat system. Ability. According to relevant data, the foreign early warning aircraft with the strongest detection capability is the E-3A early warning aircraft after the improvement of the radar upgrade (RSIP) plan . It claims to provide a detection capability of 550 kilometers for targets with RCS=0.5. If the RCS=0.05 of the overseas data J-20 is calculated, then the E-3ARSIP early warning aircraft has a detection capability of about 200 kilometers, so that the J-20 can already intercept it with the Thunderbolt-21, although there is news that E-3A’s improvements also include the addition of electronic support, missile approach warning, jammer launching and other systems. However, in the face of rapidly approaching air-to-air missiles, it may still be necessary to adopt a combination of route maneuvering and interference release. At the same time, it may also take radar Measures such as cutting off the high voltage, reducing electromagnetic signals or even shutting down will inevitably lose the ability to master the air situation in the theater, and lose the command, guidance and support of external air situation information, even stealth fighters like the F-22 cannot be displayed. With all its combat capabilities, if it cooperates with ballistic missiles and cruise missiles to attack its AWACS base, it will put the other AWACS in an embarrassing situation of "cannot fly and fall." The early warning and the joint combat system formed with the F-22 is the most powerful air combat system. It can be said that the maintenance of US theater air combat is the basis of joint combat capabilities. If it can threaten early warning aircraft, it can be fundamentally weakened from this. The air combat capability of the opposing theater. The Pili-21 can also effectively intercept cruise missiles . The main reason why the United States developed AIM-54 was to intercept the former Soviet Union’s anti-ship missiles. Against the background of flat seas, ballistic anti-ship missiles have become excellent targets for AIM-54. For our country, if the other party launches cruise missiles from the first island chain, the cruise missiles need to be on the sea. Flying for nearly an hour, then at this time, using the high-precision airborne AESA fire control radar, cruise missiles can be intercepted at a relatively long distance, and the depth of defense can be extended from the outside, thereby extending time and space for the inner defense. Another point is to take advantage of the stealth advantage of the J-20 and the long-range interception capability of the Pili-21. It can penetrate around the first island chain to intercept bombers carrying cruise missiles, because one bomber can carry more than 10 In this way, shooting down a bomber is equivalent to intercepting more cruise missiles. At the same time, it can also force the other party to launch cruise missiles at a greater distance. This increases the exposure probability of cruise missiles, thereby increasing our interception time and effectiveness. If the J-20 provides the material basis for the Chinese Air Force to fight out, then the Pili-21 converts this ability into combat effectiveness, especially with the ability to strike key information nodes such as early warning aircraft. The ability to fundamentally weaken the opponent’s combat capability is critical in modern air combat and even modern high-tech local wars [2] . "
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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Someone's clearly never heard of paragraphs.... :mrgreen:

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

That is usually one of my failings!

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by leonard »

First sighting of the AESA Leonardo ECRS Mk2 radar

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

Should be a great bit of kit but at present we only intend to buy forty of these Radars. :thumbdown:

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