Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
Lord Jim
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

How would Germany feel about the sail of Typhoons to Turkey? Could they put a stop to it, or possibly cause a hold up in spares down the line if they object to the behaviour of the Turkish Government?

I do like the idea of Giving the Red Arrows Typhoons though I would give them twelve brand new Tranche four airframes and then give them a true war role, requiring only a respray of the aircraft or the removal of a coloured shin, which ever is needed.

What I really want to see though is a commitment to install teh AESA radar on all Tranch2 three and TWO aircraft moving forward bringing all Typhoons up to a common standard.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

.
Lord Jim wrote: 13 Mar 2022, 11:24 How would Germany feel about the sail of Typhoons to Turkey? Could they put a stop to it, or possibly cause a hold up in spares down the line if they object to the behaviour of the Turkish Government?

I do like the idea of Giving the Red Arrows Typhoons though I would give them twelve brand new Tranche four airframes and then give them a true war role, requiring only a respray of the aircraft or the removal of a coloured shin, which ever is needed.

What I really want to see though is a commitment to install teh AESA radar on all Tranch2 three and TWO aircraft moving forward bringing all Typhoons up to a common standard.
Turkey are a NATO partner.

We sell them to Saudi Arabia and they are every bit as bad a regime as putins

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Timmymagic »

Germany is buying F-35 according to DW and Reuters. 35 aircraft for the nuclear mission.

This leaves the way clear for another big Typhoon order...and potentially Typhoon ECR.

Hopefully the Treasury's opposition to an increased defence spend is brushed away. It would be really good for the UK, both RAF and industry, if we ordered 24 Typhoon ECR alongside the German's...keep the line ticking over, develop some tech for Tempest and a huge increase for UK/NATO combat power.
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Anthony58 »

I would suggest another 24-36 Batch 4 Tranche 3, to sustain Typhoon in RAF service, till replaced by Tempest, by 2050, as well as Radar 2 for Tranche 2 Typhoons.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Timmymagic »

Anthony58 wrote: 14 Mar 2022, 10:47 I would suggest another 24-36 Batch 4 Tranche 3, to sustain Typhoon in RAF service, till replaced by Tempest, by 2050, as well as Radar 2 for Tranche 2 Typhoons.
I think the Typhoon ECR could be a useful capability alongside F-35 and eventually Tempest, plus it also retains its combat capability as a fighter.

Thinking aloud...

We need to start thinking about post-war Ukraine, they'll need re-arming once the war is over in order to further deter Russian aggression. If they win (and I think they will) it would be a good idea for the UK, Germany, Spain, Italy and Austria to gift them all of the Tranche 1 Typhoon's...the Germans and Spanish are already looking to replace theirs with new build Typhoon Tranche 3/4. Be a good idea for the UK to look to do similar, we were getting rid of them in 2025 anyway...replace with F-35B or new build Typhoon (with the latter as the preferred option) keeps UK industry going until Tempest ramps up, new capability for RAF and gives the Ukrainian Air Force the capability to take on Russia on more than equal terms (plus their SU-27 and MiG-29 will be seriously in need of replacement following the war).
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

Mentioned this before but the parts of tempest we need to focus on is mosquito and the complex weapons and their integration not just with a future evolved typhoon as the manned element pulling in new sensor and engine tech (not a brand new manned fighter) but also strategic istar and surface forces

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Timmymagic »

Confirmation that F-35 is happening....and Typhoon ECR...

Think we should jump on the ECR proposal with them...great news for Leonardo and BAE. Leonardo provide the Radar 2 for ECR,and own a big chunk of Hensoldt...and BAE makes a decent percentage of F-35 and over 40% of Typhoon. Speculation that this is leading to 15 x Typhoon ECR and c50 x Typhoon Tranche 4...and the 35 x F-35A

Germany buying F-35 and ECR is also great news for MBDA Spear and Spear-EW I suspect...and for Meteor...

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Jdam »

Interesting, I was wondering if with the Luftwaffe going for the F-35 this would reduce the chances of more Typhoon's as it would act as a stopgap till their next gen fighter arrived but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Do we have anything similar to what will become the Typhoon ECR in the RAF?

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Timmymagic »

Jdam wrote: 14 Mar 2022, 17:40 Interesting, I was wondering if with the Luftwaffe going for the F-35 this would reduce the chances of more Typhoon's as it would act as a stopgap till their next gen fighter arrived but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Do we have anything similar to what will become the Typhoon ECR in the RAF?
No. Typhoon ECR would be a massive capability increase for the UK and NATO..probably unlikely to happen though...

EDIT - We actually did pre SDSR 2010. The Tornado F.3 turned out to be a very good SEAD platform. It's RWR system was very good at locating enemy emitters...add in ALARM and it was actually pretty impressive. Unfortunately it was never developed further or retained (for both ALARM and F.3)...

Gareth Jennings has updated his chart...

The 38 Typhoon under Project Quadriga are already going ahead, the 35 F-35 have been confirmed with the 15 Typhoon ECR. Now for the remaining 50 Typhoon...

All we need now is for the Saudi order for 48 to actually happen, the Spanish Project Halcon to get underway for 28 Typhoon...and BAE should be fairly busy for a while. It would be wonderful if we could add 24 Typhoon ECR to the mix...but I doubt the Treasury would spring for them...I think the Turkish order for 80 is little more than a rumour as well...

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Dahedd »

ECR Typhoons should be a must for the UK. Do we have any retired 2 seaters we can convert?

Though those could go "free gratis" to Ukraine along with the T1s I guess.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

I think the RAF would be happy enough if the new cockpit and radar along with spear is rolled out across the whole fleet.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Timmymagic »

Dahedd wrote: 14 Mar 2022, 19:35 ECR Typhoons should be a must for the UK. Do we have any retired 2 seaters we can convert?
One of the key things for the ECR variant is a wing with different plumbing to allow the tanks to be moved so that the EW payload has decent placement. Can't do that with conversions. And the tanks are needed as the 2 seater sacrifices some fuel capacity over the single seater. Wouldn't be a big problem if conformals worked, but they were abandoned for aerodynamical issues.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

Isn't the reason we a installing the more advanced AESA Radar exactly because it has an EW capability to locate, identify and jam hostile radars. Surely this would also mean said radar could be attacked via SPEAR 3 and its EW Cousin. In theory all the Typhoons modernised with the new Radar and other widgets can carry out the SEAD role.

A further batch of 36 Typhoons would allow the RAF to stand up a further two frontline Squadrons, replacing those that were equipped with the Tranche 1 aircraft, giving us seven Squadrons. Add to that three frontline F-35B Squadrons and the RAF will be well placed moving forward until TEMPEST comes on line. We do need to look beyond SPEAR and FC/ASW for both aircraft, maybe a glide package for the Paveway IV as pursuing some of the proposals for new weapons that were shown with the TEMPEST mock up a couple of years ago. We will have great platforms, both manned and unmanned, we just need to be sure we have the weapons for them to launch.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Jdam »

Would we need to buy some AGM-88 HARM to get full use out of a Typhoon EC? (or some some other Anti-radiation missile)

Do we still make ALARM?

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Dahedd »

Ignore.

See below.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Dahedd »

Timmymagic wrote: 14 Mar 2022, 20:30
Dahedd wrote: 14 Mar 2022, 19:35 ECR Typhoons should be a must for the UK. Do we have any retired 2 seaters we can convert?
One of the key things for the ECR variant is a wing with different plumbing to allow the tanks to be moved so that the EW payload has decent placement. Can't do that with conversions. And the tanks are needed as the 2 seater sacrifices some fuel capacity over the single seater. Wouldn't be a big problem if conformals worked, but they were abandoned for aerodynamical issues.


I'd figured using the 2 seaters would reduce the workload for the pilot. They've got heaps to worry about as is in addition to the EW/ECR role.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

That's where some of teh TEMPEST systems to come in, trying to sort out information etc. and only giving the Pilot what he need at that moment. A single seat Typhoon could possibly do SEAD the same as any other mission and be able to change between it and say air defence at the push of a button or simply saying it. The USAF has been doing single seat SEAD with its F-16Cs out of Aviano for years.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Timmymagic »

Jdam wrote: 14 Mar 2022, 22:32 Do we still make ALARM?
Long since withdrawn from service I'm afraid, needed a re-life and the RAF wouldn't spring for it. Still in Saudi service I believe.
Jdam wrote: 14 Mar 2022, 22:32 Would we need to buy some AGM-88 HARM to get full use out of a Typhoon EC? (or some some other Anti-radiation missile)
That's Spear and Spear-EW's role...there has been some talk between MoD and MBDA about utilising Meteor as a high speed ARM, apparently it could be easily adapted...but I'm not sure if that is the standard Meteor or capabilities that will come out of the JNAAM programme.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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https://www.gov.uk/government/news/raf- ... ng-mission

The 4 deploying Typhoon jets from 3 (Fighter) Squadron are normally based at RAF Coningsby, and will conduct the NATO Air Policing mission from Mihail Kogalniceanu Air Base on the Romanian Black Sea coast. The mission is supported by 150 RAF personnel based at RAF Wittering who form the Headquarters of an Expeditionary Air Wing (EAW). The personnel recently undertook training at RAF Leeming’s Operational Training Centre.

The RAF deployment to Romania has been supported by personnel from No 1 Expeditionary Logistics Squadron and No 2 Mechanical Transport Squadron, part of the RAF Support Force formed in 2020. Both squadrons have prepared and transported equipment and supplies to maintain and sustain the Typhoon jets during the mission.
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Timmymagic »

A potentially interesting development...personally I might be happy with selling new Typhoon only if they really are demonstrably pulling away from Russia with real concrete moves, new build helps with Meteor integration which probably wouldn't happen (or be prohibitively costly) with Tranche 1's, can't imagine the US would allow AMRAAM sales to Serbia at present unless they're really sure of Serbia's western drift (although they might be happier with older AMRAAM being transferred instead of more modern Meteor).

It could of course just be a move to put pressure on France to allow Meteor sale with Rafale...

Mind you I'd rather we, and other Tranche 1 users, gifted our T1's in the future to Ukraine as the foundations of their air force post war. Given that we were pretty much guaranteed to scrap them before given interest in the Tranche 1's I would have thought thats an easy win for European security.


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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by GarethDavies1 »

Completely bonkers to offload any RAF Typhoons when there's a major war involving Russia!
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Timmymagic »

GarethDavies1 wrote: 19 Apr 2022, 10:28 Completely bonkers to offload any RAF Typhoons when there's a major war involving Russia!
I think there is a very real possibility that we can write Russia off as a potential conventional threat for a few decades once the Ukraine War is concluded....you can guarantee that Russia is looking at NATO right now and thinking 'No thanks'...

There's little chance of the Treasury increasing funds for the MoD significantly any time soon, apart from an injection of cash to replace weapons sent to Ukraine. As it stands Tranche 1 will be gone by 2026. Personally, for a whole lot of reasons I hope we'd go and buy 24 Typhoon ECR alongside Germany, brings a capability we've been lacking, useful development for Tempest, keeps Warton going prior to Tempest arriving, big increase in capability for European NATO, politically keeps the German's on side...but I have to accept that the chances of that happening are slim to none.

As for a transfer to Ukraine it would probably be a win for the MoD if they could negotiate an additional 12 or more F-35B (as has been proposed by the 1SL) and get Tranche 2 AESA upgrades funded as the price for divesting Tranche 1 gratis to Ukraine.
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Jdam »

Twitter is saying Serbia is on very good term with Russia, any truth to that?

Also meteor on Tranche 1, didn't think that was possible. :shock:

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Timmymagic »

Jdam wrote: 19 Apr 2022, 12:29 Twitter is saying Serbia is on very good term with Russia, any truth to that?
Yes, lots of truth. But they've been moving towards the West for a while (basically the older politicians are getting replaced, they know the EU is the only game in town, and I suspect the Ukraine War is making them feel somewhat isolated...). They recently bought long range SAM's and UCAV's from China, which pissed the Russian's off somewhat and was a major change in policy. France is of course looking to sell Rafale there (should be noted that the French have better relations with them than most of W. Europe).
Jdam wrote: 19 Apr 2022, 12:29 Also meteor on Tranche 1, didn't think that was possible.
Anythings possible if you throw enough money at it...but I suspect that part is more in relation to the new build Typhoon option. Spain was investigating some deeper upgrades to their T1's that added additional capabilities, they're not doing as deep an upgrade as originally proposed due to budget though.
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Jdam »

"moving towards" isn't good enough, I don't think we should be selling these jets to them. They have always been seen as lesser due to their limited air to ground capitally but right now 30 fully capable air to air fighters with Amraam C-5 look pretty good in my eyes for the sort of near peer adversary that we have today.

Limited upgrade to keep they air worthy and Amraam D's has always been my wish for them and then we can use them for Air policing while the T2 and T3 bomb the shit out of things.
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