Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Ron5 »

SD67 wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 10:08 Well they have NATO's biggest army
USA on line 1.
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Jensy »

Not sure if anyone has an account to read the full details of this article

https://www.key.aero/article/bae-system ... 1070855149

In yesterday's Defence Select Committee hearing the ACM, Sir Mike Wigston, noted that there is still presently a fleet of 137 Typhoons. Which is slightly higher than I expected.

I would vastly prefer new built Typhoons from Warton, for the industrial benefits, however this would certainly be better than 'a kick in the teeth'...
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Jdam »

The T1 has always been a good way to bolster our numbers quickly especially in any near peer conflict, they provide a good platform for air defence.

But I have been told time and time again that its not worth it, now all of a sudden its a possibility :eh:

What sort of upgrades have others done to their T1's?
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by SD67 »

If there are 137 Typhoons that barely supports an operational fleet of 100.

It’s 13 years minimum until IOC of Tempest number 1, at which time the YOUNGEST Typhoon will be 18. So all Tempest will be delivered in 5ish years?

I don’t see how you can avoid a Tempest batch 4 purchase otherwise the fleet size will fall to dangerously low levels

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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Jdam wrote: 02 Feb 2023, 17:02 The T1 has always been a good way to bolster our numbers quickly especially in any near peer conflict, they provide a good platform for air defence.

But I have been told time and time again that its not worth it, now all of a sudden its a possibility :eh:

What sort of upgrades have others done to their T1's?
To the best of my knowledge, Spain was the only nation planning to upgrade their 19 T1s to a common standard. However they've since placed an order for 20 new aircraft to take over from the F-18s in the Canary Islands. As Timmy lists on the previous page, this could be joined by an additional 25 Typhoons, or even more.

The two biggest sticking points for upgrading, as I understood, were the power supply for an AESA radar and the capability to fit conformal fuel tanks. Since then, the plan to fit CFTs has been entirely dropped (no pun) due to aerodynamic issues.

Of course, at present, we're not looking to fit the Radar 2 to even the Tranche 2s. So it's possible we could upgrade the remaining T1s to T2 standard, which would limit an upgrade to weapons integration and software. Leading to a fleet of 97 T2s and 40 T3s.
SD67 wrote: 02 Feb 2023, 17:10 If there are 137 Typhoons that barely supports an operational fleet of 100.

It’s 13 years minimum until IOC of Tempest number 1, at which time the YOUNGEST Typhoon will be 18. So all Tempest will be delivered in 5ish years?

I don’t see how you can avoid a Tempest batch 4 purchase otherwise the fleet size will fall to dangerously low levels
I agree. I'd really like to see Typhoon planned to remain in service till 2050, alongside Tempest, especially considering F-35 is now expected to serve till 2069 (which I consider unlikely).

Though quite simply there wasn't enough money to sustain the T1s without upgrades, much less upgrade them and order new build aircraft.

Perhaps Rishi will loosen the purse stings for the Integrated Review refresh due later this year.
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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Story likely relates to BAE written evidence to defence select committee

https://committees.parliament.uk/writte ... 9/default/

Upgrading the RAF’s Tranche 1 Typhoon fleet
It is technically feasible to bring a Tranche 1 (T1) aircraft to the standard of a Tranche 2 (T2) or Tranche 3 (T3) aircraft. BAE Systems has previously provided data to the Ministry of Defence (MoD) that outlines the scope of structural and avionic modifications that would be required. BAE Systems has not been asked to provide an assessment of the non-recurring design effort, nor associated costs, to implement such an upgrade. However, Spain has embarked upon a similar programme with some degree of concurrency available through multiple modification lines.

Other Typhoon partner nations have also reviewed their fleets – Germany has concluded that it will retire its T1 aircraft, but will purchase more aircraft under the Quadriga programme in order to maintain combat fleet numbers. Italy are reportedly considering acquiring new Typhoons, in response to the retirement of Tornado, and potentially to replace their Tranche 1 fleet.

It is worth nothing that there are some fundamental differences in the avionic equipment and in some areas of the aircraft structure between the T1 aircraft and those in the RAF’s T2 and T3 fleet. In addition, whilst the T2 and T3 aircraft share the same avionic equipment, there are structural differences between the T2 and T3 build standards, with the T3s already provisioned to accommodate the weight, power and cooling requirements of the RAF’s Mk2 ECRS radar.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Jdam »

Well that is the problem with the word "upgraded", its mean different things to different people, upgraded to BAE systems might be to remove obsolesce and introduce a supply chain to keep the aircraft in the air and to us on here, its means AMRAAM-D and PV4 integration with the best Radar we can put on the air frame.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Spitfire9 »

SW1 wrote: 03 Feb 2023, 16:04 Story likely relates to BAE written evidence to defence select committee

https://committees.parliament.uk/writte ... 9/default/

Upgrading the RAF’s Tranche 1 Typhoon fleet
It is technically feasible to bring a Tranche 1 (T1) aircraft to the standard of a Tranche 2 (T2) or Tranche 3 (T3) aircraft. BAE Systems has previously provided data to the Ministry of Defence (MoD) that outlines the scope of structural and avionic modifications that would be required. BAE Systems has not been asked to provide an assessment of the non-recurring design effort, nor associated costs, to implement such an upgrade. However, Spain has embarked upon a similar programme with some degree of concurrency available through multiple modification lines.

Other Typhoon partner nations have also reviewed their fleets – Germany has concluded that it will retire its T1 aircraft, but will purchase more aircraft under the Quadriga programme in order to maintain combat fleet numbers. Italy are reportedly considering acquiring new Typhoons, in response to the retirement of Tornado, and potentially to replace their Tranche 1 fleet.

It is worth nothing that there are some fundamental differences in the avionic equipment and in some areas of the aircraft structure between the T1 aircraft and those in the RAF’s T2 and T3 fleet. In addition, whilst the T2 and T3 aircraft share the same avionic equipment, there are structural differences between the T2 and T3 build standards, with the T3s already provisioned to accommodate the weight, power and cooling requirements of the RAF’s Mk2 ECRS radar.
With today's announcement by the PM that Ukrainian pilots will be receiving training on Hawks and Typhoons (I gather), what chance is there of UK promising to deliver a squadron or two of T1 aircraft to Ukraine 'pour encourager les autres'? Same idea as with Challenger to get things moving with MBT's while Chancellor Scholz was 'scholzing'. RAF T1's could be replaced down the like with T4's. Nobody knows for sure what will emerge from GCAP for the RAF or when exactly it would enter service, so T4's would be a good insurance policy in case of delay IMO.

By the way, I think that the RAF received 53 T1 aircraft. Have any been scrapped or severely cannibalised? I read that only 30 are still in service.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

Spitfire9 wrote: 08 Feb 2023, 21:58
SW1 wrote: 03 Feb 2023, 16:04 Story likely relates to BAE written evidence to defence select committee

https://committees.parliament.uk/writte ... 9/default/

Upgrading the RAF’s Tranche 1 Typhoon fleet
It is technically feasible to bring a Tranche 1 (T1) aircraft to the standard of a Tranche 2 (T2) or Tranche 3 (T3) aircraft. BAE Systems has previously provided data to the Ministry of Defence (MoD) that outlines the scope of structural and avionic modifications that would be required. BAE Systems has not been asked to provide an assessment of the non-recurring design effort, nor associated costs, to implement such an upgrade. However, Spain has embarked upon a similar programme with some degree of concurrency available through multiple modification lines.

Other Typhoon partner nations have also reviewed their fleets – Germany has concluded that it will retire its T1 aircraft, but will purchase more aircraft under the Quadriga programme in order to maintain combat fleet numbers. Italy are reportedly considering acquiring new Typhoons, in response to the retirement of Tornado, and potentially to replace their Tranche 1 fleet.

It is worth nothing that there are some fundamental differences in the avionic equipment and in some areas of the aircraft structure between the T1 aircraft and those in the RAF’s T2 and T3 fleet. In addition, whilst the T2 and T3 aircraft share the same avionic equipment, there are structural differences between the T2 and T3 build standards, with the T3s already provisioned to accommodate the weight, power and cooling requirements of the RAF’s Mk2 ECRS radar.
With today's announcement by the PM that Ukrainian pilots will be receiving training on Hawks and Typhoons (I gather), what chance is there of UK promising to deliver a squadron or two of T1 aircraft to Ukraine 'pour encourager les autres'? Same idea as with Challenger to get things moving with MBT's while Chancellor Scholz was 'scholzing'. RAF T1's could be replaced down the like with T4's. Nobody knows for sure what will emerge from GCAS for the RAF or when exactly it would enter service, so T4's would be a good insurance policy in case of delay IMO.

By the way, I think that the RAF received 53 T1 aircraft. Have any been scrapped or severely cannibalised? I read that only 30 are still in service.
I haven’t read anything that states what training actually means. If the people being trained are already pilots would they need to go to hawk or simply to simulators for certain things. Ground crews will need training too.

Any supply of fastjets will need significant support from the OEMs if they are being used in sustained combat operations that will be the biggest challenge.

The joint Qatar/UK typhoon Sqn has come to an end so maybe an opportunity there to swap Qatar for Ukraine. If you play it right potentially a future tempest operator.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Zeno »

Its not just the pilots that would require training but ground crew and there has been no discussion on that

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by leonard »

We can now make the hipotetical question that after the Storm Shadow Missile announcement today the the next domino to fall will be the Eurofighter Typhoon ?????

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by TheLoneRanger »

leonard wrote: 18 Feb 2023, 16:29 We can now make the hipotetical question that after the Storm Shadow Missile announcement today the the next domino to fall will be the Eurofighter Typhoon ?????
What will the Storm Shadow be launched off?? Did not catch that bit ..

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by leonard »

TheLoneRanger wrote: 18 Feb 2023, 17:39
leonard wrote: 18 Feb 2023, 16:29 We can now make the hipotetical question that after the Storm Shadow Missile announcement today the the next domino to fall will be the Eurofighter Typhoon ?????
What will the Storm Shadow be launched off?? Did not catch that bit ..
That is exactly the point if the decision for the long range weapon has been made now the vector became a secondary question for political reasons.
I think the Ukrainian Air Force will won't the most able of the variants of the Typhoons I don't know if the Qatari contract planes cane be made available negotiating with the Qatari government for the timeframes your opinion are welcome ??????

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by RunningStrong »

leonard wrote: 18 Feb 2023, 17:49 That is exactly the point if the decision for the long range weapon has been made now the vector became a secondary question for political reasons.
I think the Ukrainian Air Force will won't the most able of the variants of the Typhoons I don't know if the Qatari contract planes cane be made available negotiating with the Qatari government for the timeframes your opinion are welcome ??????
What's wrong with Ukraine having tranche 1 with air to air and Paveway?

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Phil Sayers »

Even if a decision to deliver fast jets is made soon it would still be a long, long time before they are in the air over Ukraine. This talk of long range weapons implies something much sooner that can be used in weeks or a couple of months. I would go with this in order of probability:

1. Helping Ukraine to develop their own long-range capabilities by joint-designing (and maybe bulk manufacturing in the UK) weapons, primarily stealthy long-legged drones and loitering munitions.

2. Adapting Storm Shadow for ground launch or jury-rigging it to be compatible with existing Ukrainian AF fast jets.

3. Buying from the open-market such as placing a large order for ground-launched SDB and paying for the rapid development of a longer-ranged version / version with a larger warhead.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

They had ground launched Taurus concepts a number of years ago so would surprise me if there is ground launched storm shadow ones.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by dmereifield »

Typhoons not being sent until after the war has ended- according to media reports this evening

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Spitfire9 »

dmereifield wrote: 18 Feb 2023, 21:56 Typhoons not being sent until after the war has ended- according to media reports this evening
What's the point of sending weapons after the war is won? They are needed to win the war.

I wonder how many hours training are required to convert an experienced MiG-29 fighter pilot to fly Typhoon well enough to use Storm Shadow. I appreciate that support structures including trained personnel are needed as well as pilots to get Typhoon into the air.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by TheLoneRanger »

leonard wrote: 18 Feb 2023, 17:49
TheLoneRanger wrote: 18 Feb 2023, 17:39
leonard wrote: 18 Feb 2023, 16:29 We can now make the hipotetical question that after the Storm Shadow Missile announcement today the the next domino to fall will be the Eurofighter Typhoon ?????
What will the Storm Shadow be launched off?? Did not catch that bit ..
That is exactly the point if the decision for the long range weapon has been made now the vector became a secondary question for political reasons.
I think the Ukrainian Air Force will won't the most able of the variants of the Typhoons I don't know if the Qatari contract planes cane be made available negotiating with the Qatari government for the timeframes your opinion are welcome ??????
I dont see Qatar giving up their Typhoon jets - esp if the UK does not want to ? UK has NATO protection cover - Qatar does not. Qatar needs all the military capability it can get.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Military_Historian »

There are more suitable aircraft that can be sent to Ukraine from other European Nations. We need to be careful and also keep in mind the logistical challenges that go alongside the Typhoon.

Typhoon and F-35 are fantastic aircraft they should not be seen as not suitable for the needs of the UK alongside other partners. Ukraine will need to post this war strengthen their air defences and consider this as the first thing they need to do.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Timmymagic »

Spitfire9 wrote: 19 Feb 2023, 07:00 What's the point of sending weapons after the war is won? They are needed to win the war.
The honest truth is it would make more sense right now to send Typhoon Tranche 1, with RAF, German, Spanish or Italian crews, to any country in Eastern Europe with MiG-29 to spare with a promise that they will stay there until the MiG's replacement has arrived. Then fly the MiG's over the border...
Spitfire9 wrote: 19 Feb 2023, 07:00 I wonder how many hours training are required to convert an experienced MiG-29 fighter pilot to fly Typhoon well enough to use Storm Shadow. I appreciate that support structures including trained personnel are needed as well as pilots to get Typhoon into the air.
It's an irrelevance anyway...no one is going to give away Tranche 2 or 3 Typhoon. We need them ourselves...Tranche 1 cannot fire Storm Shadow.
Military_Historian wrote: 20 Feb 2023, 18:18 Ukraine will need to post this war strengthen their air defences and consider this as the first thing they need to do
Typhoon Tranche 1 is the only modern air to air platform that the 'West' has available in the next 15 years, in sufficient numbers, that could be gifted to Ukraine, F-15 that are being retired are old and out of hours. Typhoon Tranche 1 have a minimum of 60% of life left, some fleets it will be more like 75%. With the proposed CAPTOR-M to E upgrades, and other modest upgrades, it would remain exceptionally competitive for years to come. An ideal replacement for the Ukrainian SU-27 fleet, with all users planning to get rid by 2030 they could be introduced gradually (Austria is looking to get rid by 2030, but it remains to be seen if the US will trust them with F-35...). All they need then is a lightweight fighter, either F-16 or Gripen C, for strikes and a LIFT to replace L-39 and SU-25 and they're good (L-39NG would be perfect). A post war Ukrainian Air Force of c160 relatively modern western fighter aircraft is perfectly doable. And in fact would be beneficial to Europe, particularly industrially (c80 extra Typhoon in the air is good news for the manufacturers long term, same with Saab and Gripen C..).
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by SD67 »

IMO this is where in a perfect world we need India to stop flirting with Russia and sell some of their SU27 fleet

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Timmymagic »

SD67 wrote: 20 Feb 2023, 20:50 IMO this is where in a perfect world we need India to stop flirting with Russia and sell some of their SU27 fleet
Never going to happen. SU-30MKI is their main combat aircraft...they've got close to 270+ of them. No way they can piss off the major supplier of them.

Apparently the US has 4 that they're considering sending over (inc 2 in private hands)....and allegedly the UK has 2...quite where they are or what state they're in is another matter...one was disassembled and one was a 2 seater (purchased in 2001 and 2012 respectively)...I doubt that Angola, Eritrea, Ethiopia or Indonesia can be leaned on enough to supply any. Either way the SU-27's are getting old and cut off from the main supplier. Better to withdraw post-war, Typhoon T1's would be perfect.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Spitfire9 »

Post war, Russia will still be able to hit Ukrainian fighter bases from its own territory so F-35B or Gripen look best suited to Ukraine to me, rather than F-16/Rafale/Typhoon. What also counts against Typhoon is that anything flying will need to be able to operate at low altitude should hostilities start again. Typhoon is optimised for high manoeuvrability at high speed at high altitude. Medium and high altitudes will be extremely vulnerable to SAM attacks from Russian territory.

I think Gripen C would be the best post war fighter for Ukraine. It is well suited to low level operation from dispersed sites. I would like to see Ukrainian pilots training on Gripen C in the very near future. If Sweden joined NATO, enough fighters could be transferred to Ukraine to quickly set up a few fighter squadrons. RAF Typhoons could be posted to Sweden to cover for transferred Gripens until Sweden had enough Gripen E through extra orders, accelerated production. Brazil will also have an assembly plant soon, which may help in that respect. Some Gripen E destined for Brazil air force could be diverted to Swedish air force.
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by SD67 »

Trawling the Interweb for Mig29 / SU27 Operators that are not in Putin's pocket...

Poland, Bulgaria - c 40 air frames between them. Surely the RAF could do a T1 deal there, given in particular Poland's closeness. A Typhoon squadron is formed in Polish markings, Poland release their MIGs to Ukraine.

The other one is Algeria - a pity France cannot flex some of their old colonial influence....lease them some Rafale

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