Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

[Spitfire9]

In 2018 India announced its MRFA (multi-role fighter aircraft) programme for 114 fighters to be made in India. 5 years on it looks like the programme is starting to move forward and that various OEM's will be submitting their proposals.

It is reported here that Eurofighter will propose a steep discount on its price (30%). I wonder if this will be enough to wrest the contract away from Dassault which has already supplied 36 Rafales to the IAF. I don't know exactly what these words in the video mean: 'the production line will be shifted from Europe to India' but it would make economic sense to shift production of future orders to just one plant. Ironically, Eurofighter lost out on cost grounds to Rafale in the earlier MMRCA fighter competition ten or so years ago - and I think would have won if it had been more cost-efficient and organised (eg had less assembly plants, one AESA design etc).

[SD67]

EF may actually have a chance this time. Given the timescales and pipeline it might make sense to move the whole line there in the late 2020s and just let India crack on.

I wouldn't see a mixed fleet as an issue given India have a number of types about to retire. How much more can they get out of Mig29? Mig21 and Jaguar must be ready for the knacker's yard. Their Mirage 2000s arent young either

[Spitfire9]

EF may actually have a chance this time. Given the timescales and pipeline it might make sense to move the whole line there in the late 2020s and just let India crack on.

I wouldn't see a mixed fleet as an issue given India have a number of types about to retire. How much more can they get out of Mig29? Mig21 and Jaguar must be ready for the knacker's yard. Their Mirage 2000s arent young either

As you say, India will be retiring a lot of fast jets in the 2020's. Apart from 73 Tejas Mk1A, there are no fast jets ordered to replace them. The MRFA programme could offset some of the retirements this decade if an OEM were selected quickly. I am not sure when Dassault could deliver, if selected, because I think their production line will be tied up with current orders for years. I guess Eurofighter could deliver initial jets sooner (before local production started).

It would make sense for Eurofighter to shut production down on one line and ship the equipment to India, wouldn't it, to lower the contract cost for India and speed commissioning an Indian assembly line. Dassault can't do that.

[Timmymagic]

It would make sense for Eurofighter to shut production down on one line and ship the equipment to India, wouldn't it, to lower the contract cost for India and speed commissioning an Indian assembly line. Dassault can't do that.

Thing is they're not production lines, they're assembly lines with production of a limited amount of components. If we allowed the Indian's to make all of the airframe, then plug in all of the parts, wheres the incentive for BAE or Airbus?

Personally looking at the number the Chinese have done on us with Transfer of Technologies I'm wary of giving any other nations tech. All you end up with is a competitor 20 years down the road...

[Spitfire9]

It would make sense for Eurofighter to shut production down on one line and ship the equipment to India, wouldn't it, to lower the contract cost for India and speed commissioning an Indian assembly line. Dassault can't do that.

Thing is they're not production lines, they're assembly lines with production of a limited amount of components. If we allowed the Indian's to make all of the airframe, then plug in all of the parts, wheres the incentive for BAE or Airbus?

Personally looking at the number the Chinese have done on us with Transfer of Technologies I'm wary of giving any other nations tech. All you end up with is a competitor 20 years down the road...

My mistake. I meant shut down an assembly line and ship the equipment to India.

PS I don't think India would be interested in just assembling parts made by Eurofighter's suppliers. India would want to make some parts locally, starting at a low percentage but rising over time.

[serge750]

Wasn't issue last time ( rafael ) that india wanted a warranty from france for build defects for the indian made rafael's....? would they not want the same from eurofighter...

[Spitfire9]

Wasn't issue last time ( rafael ) that india wanted a warranty from france for build defects for the indian made rafael's....? would they not want the same from eurofighter...

If they (I mean HAL) asked the same of Dassault or Eurofighter again I don't think the deal would progress again.

Question is, can the IAF with its dwindling squadron strength cope with yet a few years' more delay in receiving fighters? Sanctioned strength 42 squadrons, currently 30 squadrons, last 2-3 Mig-21 squadrons retiring before 2025. To offset that, half a squadron or less of Tejas Mk1A may be delivered by end-2024.. None at all, perhaps, in 2024 - it is rumoured (or even possibly admitted by HAL) that Tejas Mk1A deliveries, contracted to start before April 2024, will be delayed.

I think there will be a lot more pressure on HAL to take responsibility for properly assembling the chosen aircraft to save the IAF's fighter capacity from dropping very dangerously low if a deal is not done. I could very well be wrong, though.

[SD67]

Indian defence speculation is great because nothing can be ruled out, a blind man throwing darts would likely have a chance

Here's a dark horse - F18. Boeing we know are closing the line in St Louis by 2025 with zero chance of an extension, unlike Typhoon which still has potential follow on business. There are no partners' interest to complicate it, it's one line. And Boeing need cash. So with ta bit of good ole US salesmanship the whole thing is lift and shifted to India.

India would then be building two aircraft : Tejas powered by a single F404, F18 powered by dual F414.
Then in a couple of years Tejas is replaced by Tejas 2 powered by F414. Neat. HAL or whoever just build both of them out to replace Jaguar, MIG21, MIG29, and Mirage2000.

Rafael is there in small numbers for a couple of niche roles - 1) naval aviation and 2) not-quite-official strategic stuff

SU30 at the top end continues for the forseeable future until Tempest becomes available

[serge750]

they could always use the f18 for IAC2 their future CATOBAR carrier.....even maybe the other carriers as the f18 has already done some ski jump tests....

[Timmymagic]

A lot to unpack here...



Obviously 'he would say that wouldn't he' applies...

Tony has also confirmed that this does NOT include the Project Quadriga or Halcon I orders (38 and 20 respectively). We are expecting signed orders for 15 EK variants for Germany, 25 more Tranche 4 to Spain under Halcon II and 24 Tranche 3 to Egypt in the near future however. That totals 64 a/c in total.

So there could remain a delta of 86-136 potential orders....

That could be made up of the large German order and Saudi finally putting pen to paper...or perhaps Poland or India getting involved...

[SD67]

That's a large number. even for a salesman. There must be something solid from the Saudis to anchor that . Other posters have mentioned - a delegation visiting Warton recently. The only other big mover in a 2 year timeframe would be Turkey,who knows what their gameplan is.

[Timmymagic]

That's a large number. even for a salesman. There must be something solid from the Saudis to anchor that . Other posters have mentioned - a delegation visiting Warton recently

That was me. 50 to Germany, 48 to Saudi does it. But....that 50 for Germany is in doubt as inflationary pressures may have curtailed the size of the buy....but the Saudi order has been mentioned as up to 72....there is an option from Qatar for a further 12 as well...

[Phil Sayers]

[SD67]

Is it really beyond the realms of possibility ?
Typhoon. For Air defence
F35 for strike
FA 50 for CAS/ light strike
F16 gets gifted to Ukraine

[Timmymagic]

Is it really beyond the realms of possibility ?
Typhoon. For Air defence
F35 for strike
FA 50 for CAS/ light strike
F16 gets gifted to Ukraine

Yes it is.

Poland isn't going to give up 10 year old Block 52 F-16C

[SW1]

Poland maybe intending to ask for the US tactical nuclear capability as part of nato hence the f35 request.

[SD67]

Oh boy

Remembering my grandad's stories of his Polish comrades in WW2...whenever a German airman was shot down the Brits would run to meet the parachute

[Spitfire9]

German publication WELT AM SONNTAG wrote that Chancellor Olaf Scholz from the left-leaning Social Democrats (SPD) and Finance Minister Christian Lindner (FDP) are tending to give in to pressure from the British government and approve the production of Eurofighter Typhoon fighter jet for Saudi Arabia

https://www.turdef.com/article/german-c ... urofighter

So the option for 48 more Typhoons looks more likely to be exercised by KSA?

[TheLoneRanger]

German publication WELT AM SONNTAG wrote that Chancellor Olaf Scholz from the left-leaning Social Democrats (SPD) and Finance Minister Christian Lindner (FDP) are tending to give in to pressure from the British government and approve the production of Eurofighter Typhoon fighter jet for Saudi Arabia

https://www.turdef.com/article/german-c ... urofighter

So the option for 48 more Typhoons looks more likely to be exercised by KSA?

Best thing we kept Germany away from Tempest !!!!! Worst commercial/military partner in the world.

[SD67]

German publication WELT AM SONNTAG wrote that Chancellor Olaf Scholz from the left-leaning Social Democrats (SPD) and Finance Minister Christian Lindner (FDP) are tending to give in to pressure from the British government and approve the production of Eurofighter Typhoon fighter jet for Saudi Arabia

https://www.turdef.com/article/german-c ... urofighter

So the option for 48 more Typhoons looks more likely to be exercised by KSA?

Best thing we kept Germany away from Tempest !!!!! Worst commercial/military partner in the world.

It's more than a little irritating considering Corporate Germany's 20 year bromance with the Putin regime. China as well is full of German engineers and consultants selling their expertise to a future rival / enemy. The government needs to grow a pair - France by now would have put Boxer on hold pending resolution of all outstanding issues

[Timmymagic]

It's more than a little irritating considering Corporate Germany's 20 year bromance with the Putin regime. China as well is full of German engineers and consultants selling their expertise to a future rival / enemy. The government needs to grow a pair - France by now would have put Boxer on hold pending resolution of all outstanding issues

France would have never spent £400m developing Boxer in the first place and then leaving it all to the Germans and Dutch....any Service Chief proposing that would have been given short shrift by the Minister...

Germany and the US are not a great idea for partners, Germany because of politics, US because of ITAR....

As for France, if it wasn't for MBDA I'd say the same...but they did create some of the issues for Sea Venom. If FCASW has issues I'd cut them out as well....

[wargame_insomniac]

It's more than a little irritating considering Corporate Germany's 20 year bromance with the Putin regime. China as well is full of German engineers and consultants selling their expertise to a future rival / enemy. The government needs to grow a pair - France by now would have put Boxer on hold pending resolution of all outstanding issues

Also Iran, who the Germans have been happy to sell all manner of tech and dual use equipment to.

Funny how they only seem to discover a moral conscience when there's not a juicy export opportunity...

Meanwhile, in welcome news:





https://raf.mod.uk/news/articles/advanc ... ring-jobs/

[mrclark303]

It's more than a little irritating considering Corporate Germany's 20 year bromance with the Putin regime. China as well is full of German engineers and consultants selling their expertise to a future rival / enemy. The government needs to grow a pair - France by now would have put Boxer on hold pending resolution of all outstanding issues

Also Iran, who the Germans have been happy to sell all manner of tech and dual use equipment to.

Funny how they only seem to discover a moral conscience when there's not a juicy export opportunity...

Meanwhile, in welcome news:





https://raf.mod.uk/news/articles/advanc ... ring-jobs/

All that money, years of waiting and effort for a handful of AESA tranche 3 machines, tranche 1 to be withdrawn, trance 2 no funded integration and they won't....

Why bother really, a handful of exquisite kit, fleets within fleets, hollowed out with absolutely no mass whatsoever.

[Jensy]

It's more than a little irritating considering Corporate Germany's 20 year bromance with the Putin regime. China as well is full of German engineers and consultants selling their expertise to a future rival / enemy. The government needs to grow a pair - France by now would have put Boxer on hold pending resolution of all outstanding issues

Also Iran, who the Germans have been happy to sell all manner of tech and dual use equipment to.

Funny how they only seem to discover a moral conscience when there's not a juicy export opportunity...

Meanwhile, in welcome news:





https://raf.mod.uk/news/articles/advanc ... ring-jobs/

All that money, years of waiting and effort for a handful of AESA tranche 3 machines, tranche 1 to be withdrawn, trance 2 no funded integration and they won't....

Why bother really, a handful of exquisite kit, fleets within fleets, hollowed out with absolutely no mass whatsoever.

I'm not unsympathetic to your point of view, but:

- 40 upgraded airframes gives us a serious benefit in A2A capability alongside EW and more

- Hopefully this will prove tech for GCAP

- Only funding stands in the way of a fleet-wide upgrade (Tranche 1 required hardware)

[Timmymagic]

I'm not unsympathetic to your point of view, but:

- 40 upgraded airframes gives us a serious benefit in A2A capability alongside EW and more

- Hopefully this will prove tech for GCAP

- Only funding stands in the way of a fleet-wide upgrade (Tranche 1 required hardware)

My issue is the sheer cost overall. And how well it compares to efforts elsewhere. The SABR effort in the US for F-16 appears to be around 1/10th of the cost per aircraft. I know its not apples to oranges, there are probably costs buried elsewhere in the budget and its a less capable radar....but for £20m per aircraft I'd be expecting a new radar, and full MLU, including removal of obsolescence and re-lifing, across the platform...