Military Flying Training

Contains threads on Joint Service equipment of the past, present and future.
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The Armchair Soldier
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Re: Military Flying Training

Post by The Armchair Soldier »

Scorpion Selected for Potential U.K. Training Bid
A consortium of QinetiQ and Thales have chosen Textron Airland’s Scorpion light attack aircraft as the platform for its bid into a major U.K. live flying training program.

The companies want to offer the Scorpion the UK defense ministry’s Air Support to Defense Operational Training (ASDOT) program.
Read More: http://aviationweek.com/shownews/scorpi ... aining-bid

~UNiOnJaCk~
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Re: Military Flying Training

Post by ~UNiOnJaCk~ »

^ Interesting stuff. Will watch this one eagerly. Great find, AS.

bobp
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Re: Military Flying Training

Post by bobp »

Yes indeed interesting. I have liked the Scorpion since it was unveiled, and I hope that with its low running costs other uses for it might be found.

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Re: Military Flying Training

Post by marktigger »

scorpion was at Yeovilton airdisplay in in the static park

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Re: Military Flying Training

Post by RetroSicotte »

What does this do that a Hawk doesn't, though?

It's a curious pick.

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Re: Military Flying Training

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RichardIC
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Re: Military Flying Training

Post by RichardIC »

arfah wrote:Private finance,RS. Probably..?
Contractor owned probably yes.

New cabs, much more modern everything, greater serviceability, cheaper operating costs - certainly compared to a Falcon, dunno about a legacy Hawk - depending on the deal with the contractor.

And there's the internal reconfigurable mission bay that could potentially handle all manner of electronic threat simulators.

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Re: Military Flying Training

Post by marktigger »

is flight refueling still opperating the Falcon fleet

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whitelancer
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Re: Military Flying Training

Post by whitelancer »

marktigger wrote:is flight refueling still opperating the Falcon fleet
Flight Refuelling is now part of Cobham.
Saw one taking off this morning from Hurn, so looks like it.

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Re: Military Flying Training

Post by bobp »

The Scorpion thing is not a done deal, other companies are in the bidding process.

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Re: Military Flying Training

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Re: Military Flying Training

Post by Gabriele »

I'm just not sure about what the Scorpion would actually be good for. It is not a bargain for Red Air from a speed and agility point of view, and as a replacement for the Falcon 20 it might have trouble due to only having 2 men on board, when the Falcon tipically has at least 3.
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cockneyjock1974
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Re: Military Flying Training

Post by cockneyjock1974 »

I suspect the RAF are trying to get "light" ground attack through the back door. If so good for them £3000 per flight hour nice!!!!!

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Re: Military Flying Training

Post by RetroSicotte »

That was my thought. A small fleet of Scorpion's for the cases when they're capable (such as against ISIS) but can flow back into training roles when not needed.

Chances of this though? Almost nuthin!

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Re: Military Flying Training

Post by RichardIC »

cockneyjock1974 wrote:I suspect the RAF are trying to get "light" ground attack through the back door. If so good for them £3000 per flight hour nice!!!!!
I think the RAF would fight tooth and nail against Scorpion light ground attack - in the same way the RN did against Type 31!

Scorpion would have been ideal for Afghanistan, and current anti-Daesh ops in Iraq where there's absolutely no threat from enemy air. But the rub is that it would not be "as well as" but "instead of" and are the RAF going to give up a squadron of Typhoon to get Scorpion?

Then there's the integration of UK weapons, which seems to be a blocker for so much.

We need a different thread for this.

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Re: Military Flying Training

Post by arfah »

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Re: Military Flying Training

Post by Pseudo »

RetroSicotte wrote:That was my thought. A small fleet of Scorpion's for the cases when they're capable (such as against ISIS) but can flow back into training roles when not needed.

Chances of this though? Almost nuthin!
I'm probably going to look hugely stupid for asking this, but why can't that be done with the Hawks? What apart from money prevents the RAF from upgrading some of them to take on a light attack role?

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Re: Military Flying Training

Post by bobp »

Pseudo wrote:I'm probably going to look hugely stupid for asking this, but why can't that be done with the Hawks? What apart from money prevents the RAF from upgrading some of them to take on a light attack role?
The existing Hawk Trainers are getting old or life expired. Its possible to build new ones as they still do. In fact some of the Hawk models sold abroad had a light attack role.

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Re: Military Flying Training

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Pseudo wrote:I'm probably going to look hugely stupid for asking this, but why can't that be done with the Hawks? What apart from money prevents the RAF from upgrading some of them to take on a light attack role?
... and I guess we are back onto military flying training now.

The Hawk, of any description in UK service, totally lacks any of the things that make a modern combat aircraft. To start with:
> secure networked comms
> sensors - EO, radar, targeting pods
> weapons integration - getting Brimstone, PW IV etc to work would cost an absolute fortune and the procurement of the sensors listed above
> self protection - no DAS or radar warning receivers
> AAR

And there are no crew for the combat role, and how would new pilots be trained while the Hawks were off bombing stuff?

When the Hawk was brand new the RAF was still dropping dumb bombs and firing SNEBs. That ceased decades ago and so did the vague possibility of any cross-over use of the Hawk in an attack role.

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Re: Military Flying Training

Post by Pseudo »

RichardIC wrote:
Pseudo wrote:I'm probably going to look hugely stupid for asking this, but why can't that be done with the Hawks? What apart from money prevents the RAF from upgrading some of them to take on a light attack role?
... and I guess we are back onto military flying training now.

The Hawk, of any description in UK service, totally lacks any of the things that make a modern combat aircraft. To start with:
- secure networked comms
- sensors - EO, radar, targeting pods
- weapons integration - getting Brimstone, PW IV etc to work would cost an absolute fortune and the procurement of the sensors listed above
- self protection - no DAS or radar warning receivers
- AAR

And there are no crew for the combat role, and how would new pilots be trained while the Hawks were off bombing stuff?

When the Hawk was brand new the RAF was still dropping dumb bombs and firing SNEBS. That ceased decades ago and so did the vague possibility of any cross-over use of the Hawk in an attack role.
I knew I'd look stupid asking. :)

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Re: Military Flying Training

Post by Pseudo »

Double post. Now I REALLY do look stupid. :o

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Re: Military Flying Training

Post by marktigger »

Legacy Hawk in the training roles its being used for is fine with normal weapons delivery much more is done in the simulator. The Falcon carries a series of Podded systems for a number of agencies and generated threats with one of the hawks roles to simulate missile attack. Its also used for Dissimilar air combat training. There are a number of other aircraft that provide this in Europe including Hunters and A4 Skyhawks so al long as the Legacy hawks can be kept flying they are still viable. Possibly modernise their systems like Glass cockpits and modern comms. However I suspect we shall see Hawks being some of the last jets going onto the warbird circuit.

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Re: Military Flying Training

Post by bobp »

With regards to the Scorpion Trainer the USAF in a milestone event are going to give it the once over, perhaps giving it certification. This will be a major boost to any future sales including to the UK.

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /87382706/

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Re: Military Flying Training

Post by arfah »

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Re: Military Flying Training

Post by Gabriele »

Is 60(R) Sqn moving to Valley, or disbanding in favor of a new standard for the occasion...?

Also, where does the new contract leave the Operational Training Phase (OTP) for the Army Air Corps, currently on Squirrels at Middle Wallop?

Does the article say anything about that...?
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