UK Defence Forum

This is a news and discussion thread for the Indian Armed Forces.

India's first indigenous aircraft carrier, INS Vikrant, has been undocked for the first time:











Read more about it here:

http://indianexpress.com/photos/picture ... vikrant/5/

Very reminiscent of QE's float out last July. Good luck to them. Does anyone know what the fate of Viraat (Hermes) will be?

SKB wrote:Very reminiscent of QE's float out last July. Good luck to them. Does anyone know what the fate of Viraat (Hermes) will be?

I'm afraid it's heading for the scrapyard. They were said to be looking at a 'retirement plan' but the last I heard it was proving too expensive. Given the shambles that is Indian defence matters, the decision will probably drag on for years,then it will be scrapped. You think the UK has problems with the MOD, well Indian defence procurement makes it look amazingly efficient in comparison.

I just hope that you don't get any of the rabid Indian nationalists on this thread, or admin will wonder what has hit them.

Ideally, it would be nice to bring Hermes back to Britain as a museum ship, or as a troll ship for the Falklanders.

Indian Navy Announced its Readiness to Test Barak-8 Air & Missile Defense System

The Indian Navy announced its readiness to test the Barak-8 air and missile defense system. The missiles will be fired from the Indian Navy newest destroyer INS Kolkata sometime this summer, during the monson season. The goal is to qualify the system ahead of its deployement accross several vessels in the Indian Navy fleet.

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... ew&id=2905

India Issued a Letter of Request for "IAC-2" 65,000 Tons Aircraft Carrier With EMALS

According to several Indian newspapers, the Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) has launched its project to build a 65,000-tonne sea-borne aircraft carrier, nammed "indigenous aircraft carrier number 2", or IAC-2. A Letter of Request (LoR) was sent to at least four foreign companies: BAE Systems, DCNS, Lockheed Maritn and Rosoboronexport.
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Select bidders have until July 22nd (which is extremely short) to respond with detailed cost and technical proposal. According to the LoR, the IAC-2 aircraft carrier should have a displacement of 65,000 tons, a length of 300 meters and equipped with Electromagnetic Aircraft Launch System (EMALS). The carrier vessel should be able to accomodate an air wing consisting in 35 aircraft and 20 helicopters.

http://navyrecognition.com/index.php?op ... ew&id=2914

1 week or so to answer... unusual way of handling such complex programs

Lip service, not to make anyone (officially) angry.

Would the US supply EMALS for throwing Russian-made jets? Would the US deny supply to a British contractor (who already had a contract for EMALS)... don't know.

And how many weeks ago was it when Russia unveiled a scale model for exactly such a carrier? But they have not proofed the technology in any way.

For the earlier carrier the design support contract was switched between Italy and France. France is on the list; Italy not.

What's with having one carrier STOBAR and the other CATOBAR? Would it not make more sense logistically to have both STOBAR or both CATOBAR?

Oh wait, it's India. To Hell with logistics and commonality!

Here's some background on the evolution and plans. Written in 2010, the article seems still accurate today. A lot of preliminary (capability level) design must have gone on in the intervening years
- now why did the new gvmnt's DefSec state in the Rafale negotiations that they will buy the first three dozen Rafales, come whatever, but that the negotiation was really about the rest?

http://idsa.in/idsacomments/IndiasFutur ... man_010610

A new photo of India's next Kolkata-class, INS Kochi.

On the subject of the Indian Navy, I found this yesterday:

http://www.paluba.info/smf/index.php?topic=17897.0;wap2

It's an "Ask Me Anything" answered by a U.S. Naval Officer claiming to have spent five days aboard an Indian destroyer (INS Delhi). He paints a pretty horrendous picture to say the least; slavery, shocking engineering practices, seemingly no health and safety, close calls during RAS, poor seamanship skills... it's all in there.

Of course, there's nothing to say any of this is true or if the person who wrote it is who they claim to be, but I have to say, whoever wrote it does seem to know what they're talking about, at least from my civvie perspective.

Has anyone here had any experiences with the Indian Navy? Do they tally in any way with what is claimed in that AMA?

Didn't know about this Indian project (Light Combat Aircraft Naval Prototype - 1 (NP-1)), so sharing it for others to view/comment.


^ NP-2

The whole project is one big joke and emphasises everything that is wrong with the Indian MoD and defence industry (severe corruption and crippling incompetence).

No more than a flying coffin, if god-forbid, a skirmish were to happen with China or Pakistan. And by the time it enters service in numbers, it will be as obsolete as the Mig-21 anyway.

India needs to ditch the project, with a subsequent lengthy review analysing everything that went right and wrong. At this stage, banking all the technological advancement from Tejas and learning from the experience of this project is what is important.

Then start afresh, with a new more relevant design and a concious effort to avoid past mistakes.

Saab Offers India to Collaborate on "Sea Gripen" Naval Variant of the Gripen NG Fighter Jet
http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... ew&id=3404

Testing of BrahMos Anti-Ship Cruise Missile From Su-30MKI Delayed to Mid-2016
http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... ew&id=3406

The Armchair Soldier wrote:On the subject of the Indian Navy, I found this yesterday:

http://www.paluba.info/smf/index.php?topic=17897.0;wap2

It's an "Ask Me Anything" answered by a U.S. Naval Officer claiming to have spent five days aboard an Indian destroyer (INS Delhi). He paints a pretty horrendous picture to say the least; slavery, shocking engineering practices, seemingly no health and safety, close calls during RAS, poor seamanship skills... it's all in there.

Of course, there's nothing to say any of this is true or if the person who wrote it is who they claim to be, but I have to say, whoever wrote it does seem to know what they're talking about, at least from my civvie perspective.

Has anyone here had any experiences with the Indian Navy? Do they tally in any way with what is claimed in that AMA?

This line: "I have staff in India and find that there is a tendency to do nothing when they are unsure of something, instead of coming to me and asking for an explanation."

I have found that in general, Indians lack initiative and need to be micromanaged - in many respects, my dog displays superior cognitive capabilities. I'd say that the U.S Naval Officer is bang on, as everything he talks about (I.e incompetence, classism, slavery, dirty) I can personally attest too.

(LRSAM looks and sounds awefully close to LRASM... the acronym I mean)

Indian Navy Successfully Test Fires LRSAM/Barak-8 Air & Missile Defense System from INS Kolkata

The Indian Navy achieved a significant milestone in enhancing its Anti Air Warfare capability with the maiden firing of its newly developed Long Range Surface to Air Missile (LR SAM). The firing was undertaken on 29 and 30th Dec 15 on the Western Seaboard by INS Kolkata, wherein the missile successesfully intercepted an Aerial Target at extended ranges.

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... ew&id=3417

xav wrote:(LRSAM looks and sounds awefully close to LRASM... the acronym I mean)

Indeed they really do!

The Indians have done well with Barak 8, they plan on literally fitting it onto any ship they can (corvette size upwards). Barak 8 comes with its own launch canisters and is quite a compact system - similar principle to CAMM in many ways (low ship impact, easy to install, compatible with a wide range of systems etc).

I suppose one of the reasons for it being a compact system is Israel's need for a long range SAM on its own corvettes. But this brings drawbacks, as speed was sacrificed for manoeuvrability and range. Such is the way when you want long range SAM in a compact system... you cannot have it all.

Mach 2 and ~70 km range doesn't make for a good wide area air-defence missile. Bad for India who desperately needs such a capability, but okay for Israel who has no requirement for fleet wide area air-defence, and simply needed a good long range SAM for self defence etc.

WhitestElephant wrote:Barak 8 comes with its own launch canisters and is quite a compact system - similar principle to CAMM in many ways (low ship impact, easy to install, compatible with a wide range of systems etc).

No soft launch, though.
- I wonder where, on their carriers, they will have enough of a clear area(?)
- having said that, Cavour does carry the mini-15 version for do-it-yourself AD

The Indian Navy is also getting the SRSAM which is supposedly based on VL-Mica (depending on sources). VL-Mica comes with its own canister as well. (I learned from MBDA last year that these canisters are disposable, not re-loadable...) http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... r-sam.html

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I think that'll be Mi-25 attack helicopter, not ye olde Mig-25 jets?

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I think Modi has enough of "nationalist" credentials to carry the process through, even though it has been derailed so many times before by the kind of "sabotage" we are now evidencing :

"India blamed Jaish-e-Mohammed for a December 2001 attack on the Indian parliament that killed 11 people, led to a massive military build-up at the border and brought the two countries almost to the brink of war.

New Delhi later suspended all talks with Islamabad after Islamist gunmen attacked the city of Mumbai in November 2008, killing 166 people in attacks planned from Pakistan.

The two countries agreed to resume a peace process in 2011 but tensions spiked again in recent years, with cross-border shelling in Kashmir claiming dozens of lives since 2014."

My (uninformed) bet is that the unification of Taliban has been aided, to set the scene for negotiations to proceed on that side of the other border of Pakistan as well. The number of $$bns promised as inducements for these changes will only come to the surface later (and without he results materializing, never).