Indian Armed Forces

[ArmChairCivvy]

Shaking the tree symptom:

If you cut the volume of the purchase, of course also the per piece price will go down?

"The cost of the 36 Rafale fighter jets, based on the the original Request For Proposal (RFP) price while taking into account the foreign exchange and others, comes to about Rs 65,000 crore. India is bargaining hard to bring down the price to about Rs 59,000 crore"

..http://idrw.org . Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website , Kindly don http://idrw.org/even-as-agusta-fire-rag ... more-93894 .

[2HeadsBetter]

I think perhaps "India is bargaining hard" translates to "We'll buy Sukhois/Super Hornets instead." Can't see what other bargaining tool they have.

[ArmChairCivvy]

They might do well to switch the bargaining effort to here:

http://www.newindianexpress.com/thesund ... 396450.ece
- the domestic Tejas already has and only for face saving purposes a Tejas2 design iteration has been ordered (while they are talking to Saab about Gripen and technology transfer)

[ArmChairCivvy]

No wonder the French were reluctant to give cast-iron quality guarantees for locally manufactured (is not happening now) Rafales.

Here is a news piece on Russian engines that have been locally manufactured in India:
http://www.janes.com/article/60357/indi ... -two-years

[arfah]

Seems that India is suffering as the EU/US and Ukraine have export embargoes on the equipment to be used in their Russian MiG29KUB carrier borne jets.

http://www.janes.com/article/62063/indi ... r-aircraft

[2HeadsBetter]

Hate to sound like a broken record, but Rafale is still not a done deal:

http://www.thecitizen.in/index.php/News ... ar-Closure

[ArmChairCivvy]

Rafale won on price... it was declared at the time. But winning a competition in India only seems to set you on the path for trouble, shown here, once more (shake the tree, until no fruit is coming down - line of thinking):

"
But defence industry insiders believe Parrikar is dragging his feet on the Rafale purchase, as he is reportedly not entirely convinced of the economic and operational efficacy of acquiring only two squadrons at an astronomical price.

The overall Rafale purchase, including its weaponry and engineering support package, is reportedly $10.5-11 billion.

A back-of-the-envelope calculation makes it whopping $290 for each fighter, accounting for a major chunk of the IAF’s capital acquisition budget, even though payments would be extended over several years.

The Defence Minister is believed to be of the view that for the price of each Rafale, the IAF can acquire multiple licence-built Su-30MKI’s and many more Tejas Light Combat Aircraft to make up flagging fighter numbers and hence, is subtly stalling progress on acquiring the French fighter.

In early 2015, when negotiations for the MMRCA were deadlocked, Parrikar had declared that upgraded Su-30MKI multi-role fighter were ‘always there’ for the IAF as an alternative to the Rafales. Insiders claim he continues to pursue this line of thinking.

Parrikar is also believed to have repeatedly declined, since April, to meet a team of senior French officials seeking to discuss-and finalise- the Rafale contract.

[...]

To add to France’s irritation Parrikar is in advanced and much publicised negotiations with executives from Lockheed Martin, Boeing and Saab, all offering to transfer their production lines to India for the F-16 and F/A-18 Hornet and the Gripen-E respectively."

[arfah]

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[~UNiOnJaCk~]

They'd make things a whole lot easier for themselves if they weren't so pathologically hell bent on trying to syphon off Western intellectual property in order to 'cheat' their way in to the international market.

It’s made all the more ironic by the fact that, even in cases when they gain possession of Western know-how, they still manage to cock-up their own projects. Money not being able to buy sense comes to mind here. They think they can fast-track themselves in to competing with the West in the high-tech world by simply buying our ideas and or producing our kit on license at cheaper prices. What they haven't got in place, however, is the basic building blocks to even do that successfully. It's laughable.

[arfah]

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[ArmChairCivvy]

There is another way to run the defence budget, from the above DefenceNews link:

""We have examined this deal very carefully and the [budgetary] approval has been rejected thrice by the Indian finance ministry," the MoD official said.

"This is indeed a setback to us, as we want the MRTT aircraft desperately, and a fresh [global] procurement will take at least five more years", said a senior air force official said who requested anonymity."

Basic things (like howitzers), unnecessary things (like VIP choppers), critically needed things (like the competition won by Rafale); no matter what is the subject matter, the same disgraceful behaviours can be observed.
- some folks have learned (the Americans did not even turn up)

[Little J]

Why do defence firms even bother with Indian? If I was in charge of one, I'd laugh my arse off if a RFP ever came in.

[WhitestElephant]

Off topic.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/

I happened upon that forum today, didn't create an account, just lurked for a short while. Is it just me, or...

[arfah]

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[2HeadsBetter]

Suckers for punishment or putting the cat amongst the....er, Rafales?

http://www.airrecognition.com/index.php ... ative.html

[ArmChairCivvy]

Amazing SH*T... all they want is export clearance for Gripen,

and they have to do it this way: we are obligated to buy 2 sqrnn's worth of (the fighter deal of the century)...from those Frenchies, who were stupid enough to lower the price to a loss situation - but then did not give us all the technology for free; what's wrong with them?

... but we will buy the misisig part of the specified total number from a US manufacturer - NOT!

[xav]

Second Indian Navy Project 15B Destroyer Mormugao Launched at MDL Shipyard in Mumbai

Another significant milestone in the annals of the Indigenous Warship design and construction programme of India was achieved with the launch of Guided Missile Destroyer, Mormugao, second ship of Project 15B, on 17 Sep 16, at Mazagaon Dock Ship Builders Limited (MDL), Mumbai. With a launch weight of 2844 tonnes, the vessel made its first contact with water at 11:58 AM with full fanfare during the launching ceremony graced by Chief of the Naval Staff, Admiral Sunil Lanba as the Chief Guest.

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... ew&id=4368

[arfah]

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[ArmChairCivvy]

Like I said on TD a couple of years back, that low number (while bothering to introduce a new type) means that they will be the next nuclear delivery force
- considering that the two-seater Indo-Russian PAK FA is unlikely to ever show up
- the reason for India wanting a two-seater, rather than the plane Russia developed for herself, being the same as what I postulate above

[Caribbean]

According to Global Security, India have signed the Rafale contract - 36 for $8.7b

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/libra ... ag8%2e1ofw

[ArmChairCivvy]

Someone had produced an interesting breakdown of the above total for Rafale purchase, from what source is unclear but in the context of the Finnish fighter competition where Rafale is taking part:
- 3,42 bn euros for the planes
- 1,8 bn for getting support and maintenance infra into place
- a whopping 1,7 bn for India specific modifications (... what might they be? The mismatch with the next line item, ie missiles that Rafale would normally carry is quite eye catching. E.g. Qatar got a nice pile of Scalp cruise missiles with their purchase.)
- and 0, 7 bn for the initial armament package

Deliveries starting in Sept, 2019.

[Aethulwulf]

- a whopping 1,7 bn for India specific modifications (... what might they be?

Pure speculation but the Rafale was designed by France to be nuclear capable and India is a nuclear power. Perhaps India wants to use the Rafale as a nuclear bomber.

[ArmChairCivvy]

That has been my line of thought. The French themselves have the " ability to carry French ASMP-A air-launched nuclear missiles, allowing the Rafale to replace the Mirage 2000N in that nuclear strike role".

I believe that the 2-seater version is used for the above mission, so the hefty modification bill probably (idle speculation here) derives from a single seater getting all the relevant systems *and* an Indian missile - as we know from own experience, integration does not come cheap. This piece of news might slot in (though it is a very heavy load?):
https://www.rt.com/business/331287-indi ... d-missile/

[2HeadsBetter]

Six years to supply 36 jets. What's the average working week in France?

[arfah]

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