Indian Armed Forces

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Indian Armed Forces

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Defiance wrote: the main reason Russia went for MiG-29K over Su-33 was (so i hear) to do with carrier capacity
If you meant to say 'Russia' the main reason was that the Su was too big for their carrier... meaning that it could in practice carry only A2A and thus was no 'strike force'... as evidenced by their cruise to Syria and back

I agree with the thoughts on Mig-35 (though it is also a good instrument for maintaining fighter pilots' annual hours) and think I got the 29s and 35s a bit mixed up in this respect
- very few operational units with 29 left?
- for the 35 there was an announcement with the UAE that they would start to assemble those planes; will believe it when I see it

Going back to India
Defiance wrote:so many damn acronyms in Indian programs
as their domestic fighter numbers have now been capped (they up-powered it, to allow carrier ops), is there any "Made in India" fighter in sight... e.g. Rafale does not count?
- their engine production has gone better (though there is no R&D) than plane designs

Finally, EMALS was approved in the Trump years. If anything, the ties have grown closer since, so I guess that tech transfer would still be allowed?
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Re: Indian Armed Forces

Post by Defiance »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Going back to India
Defiance wrote:so many damn acronyms in Indian programs
as their domestic fighter numbers have now been capped (they up-powered it, to allow carrier ops), is there any "Made in India" fighter in sight... e.g. Rafale does not count?
- their engine production has gone better (though there is no R&D) than plane designs

Finally, EMALS was approved in the Trump years. If anything, the ties have grown closer since, so I guess that tech transfer would still be allowed?
So as I understand it (and I could well be wrong), the main development efforts are ...
  • MWF - Pretty much Tejas Mk2. take the Mk1 and just make it work - bigger engine, bigger airframe and canards
  • AMCA - indigenous 5th gen effort in joint effort between DRDO/HAL
  • MRCBF - indigenous carrierbourne effort satisfied by joint-effort between DRDO/HAL as TEDBF*
*variant of TEDBF renamed ORCA being examined for air force usage but I don't think it has been named as satisfying a particular requirement or to meet a defined program like other aircraft concepts have been. It's a proposed spinoff from TEDBF and is being evaluated and could potentially compete with AMCA in the multirole/strike arena in terms of development funding.

MWF = Medium Weight Fighter
AMCA = Advanced Multirole Combat Aircraft
MRCBF = Multi Role Carrier Bourne Fighter
TEDBF = Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter
ORCA = Omni Role Combat Aircraft

Plus there's loads of OTS procurements. The whole thing can make your head spin trying to understand all the different strands

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Re: Indian Armed Forces

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Defiance wrote:
ArmChairCivvy wrote: An ex-Navy chief said on an Indian daily that they won't be buying any more of those as every arrested landing needs some remedial work afterwards... easy to make a navy plane into something else but v.v does not hold

This does not mean that the plane in itself was bad (Russia buying quite a few for their AF cause they, too, have been losing numbers by going for the top-top designs).
Yeah the IN aren't happy with MiG-29K, the main reason Russia went for MiG-29K over Su-33 was (so i hear) to do with carrier capacity and cost. At least it gave them a moderate starting point for deriving requirements for MRCBF but there's so many damn acronyms in Indian programs it can be a bit of a mess.

The wider Russian enterprise is moving away from the MiG design which is highlighted by the lacklustre support for MiG-35. Seems like they mainly were backing it to maintain a 'low cost' export offering, the RuAF is becoming a Flanker force with all the associated pros and cons.
MiG-35 is as dead as dodo.
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Re: Indian Armed Forces

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Is it not still in the running for the hundred+ Indian competition (which is not for the navy, who have said they are not going to buy more)?

There are two fighters that seem to be now you see it, now you don't, and out of these three Flanker is not one of the two:
"The country seems more interested in investing in the new Su-57 in addition to expanding the receipt of the latest variants of the most capable Flanker."

This is already half a year old source, but anyway: https://www.airway1.com/mig-35-the-reje ... roduction/
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Re: Indian Armed Forces

Post by Defiance »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Is it not still in the running for the hundred+ Indian competition (which is not for the navy, who have said they are not going to buy more)?
It's ostensibly still a program of record for the Russian air force for the time being. If the Russians come with a brochure and some specs India will hardly turn them away, who knows, maybe they'll offer a pretty good sweetener if they don't want to keep the MiG line going themselves.
abc123 wrote:MiG-35 is as dead as dodo.
Maybe, but if Russia is still pushing it in the export market there's a chance it can rise again from the flames, if the terms are right.

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Re: Indian Armed Forces

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Indian Navy Commissions First P15B Destroyer INS Visakhapatnam
INS Visakhapatnam, a P15B stealth guided missile destroyer, was commissioned into the Indian Navy in the presence of Raksha Mantri Shri Rajnath Singh at the Naval Dockyard, Mumbai on November 21, 2021.

The Project 15B (P15B) / Visakhapatnam-class is the latest destroyer design currently under construction for the Indian Navy. These ships have been designed indigenously by the Indian Navy’s Directorate of Naval Design, New Delhi. Each ship spans 163 metres in length and 17.4 metres at beam and displaces 7,300 tonnes. These ships will be propelled by four gas turbines to achieve speed in excess of 30 knots.
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... khapatnam/

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It seems to be considerably different from Stealth Warships build by other nations in its design.

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Re: Indian Armed Forces

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IAC Vikrant heads out for 3rd round of sea trials

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... ea-trials/
Having gained adequate confidence in the ship’s abilities, the IAC now sails to undertake complex maneuvers to establish specific readings of how the ship performs in various conditions. In addition, various sensor suites of the ship would also be tested.
Seems a bit slow to get Vikrant geared up and into service. Vikramaditya was 5 years from launch to 2013 (granted she was a refurb) but we're 9 years down the road for Vikrant. She's expected to be commissioned later this year and undergo flight trials in 2023.

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Re: Indian Armed Forces

Post by leonard »

Very clear and detailed rendering of the Scorpene submarine of the Indian Navy

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Re: Indian Armed Forces

Post by serge750 »

i read on twitter a F18 took off from an indian ski jump with 2 harpoons this month, cant link it, anybody know if it was a full fuel load etc....thanks

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Re: Indian Armed Forces

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serge750 wrote: 16 Jul 2022, 21:53 F18 took off from an indian ski jump with 2 harpoons
Interesting from two points of view: will they have EMALS (then this experiment would remain just that, an interesting experiment.

Second, their Flankers can carry Brahmos for anti-ship use... so how far out is the Indian navy planning to operate with their carriers?
- they did show interest in DG (in case the US decides to 'vacate')
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Re: Indian Armed Forces

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Maybe India is watch Russia getting in to a mess and thinking that if things keep going as they are Russia will not be able to support export platforms there for its Mig's and Flankers are going to become less and less effective

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Re: Indian Armed Forces

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Tempest414 wrote: 17 Jul 2022, 10:06 Russia will not be able to support export platforms there for its Mig's and Flankers are going to become less and less effective
A good point, but land-based Migs are on their way out (and while the carrier-Migs have proved unreliable, they are the only [?] fit with the carrier they got from... Ukraine (though sold by Russia).

The Flankers are a mainstay, and have been 'insured' by having their engines built in India. However, in the Himalaya wars with Pakistan the inventory of precision weapons proved ineffective (the Mirage fleet saved the bacon; hence more French planes. Not insignificant that they have A. carrier potential (version M) and B. as a two-seater can be used as nuclear bombers)
- for some reason that I can't :think: fathom, the now defunct Super-Sukhoi, in its made-in-India version was to be a two-seater, too
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Re: Indian Armed Forces

Post by TheLoneRanger »

The war in Ukraine has not been a good advertising board for Russian weapons for sure.

India is looking to diversify so the era of buying another new type of fighter jet from Russia is over. India is looking to have a make in India at the core of every procurement.

Buying a USA fighter will be an interesting - and a first(?) for India - and significant if India does. The most logical choice for India is to buy more Rafales as it has commited to the type already but India's weapons procurement strategy often makes as much sense as Egypts!

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Re: Indian Armed Forces

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TheLoneRanger wrote: 17 Jul 2022, 10:23 The most logical choice for India is to buy more Rafales as it has commited to the type already
Agree. But the conglomerate that built the factory to err build Rafales only entered 'defence' with this deal - not going to review how that happened - here.
- no wonder, though, that the first batch was bought with 5 yrs of total support; may be after the 5 yrs more support locally will have been built up
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Re: Indian Armed Forces

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ArmChairCivvy wrote: 17 Jul 2022, 13:11
TheLoneRanger wrote: 17 Jul 2022, 10:23 The most logical choice for India is to buy more Rafales as it has commited to the type already
Agree. But the conglomerate that built the factory to err build Rafales only entered 'defence' with this deal - not going to review how that happened - here.
- no wonder, though, that the first batch was bought with 5 yrs of total support; may be after the 5 yrs more support locally will have been built up
The naval fighter procurement is completely separate from the IAF. The IN had been unsatisfied with the reliability of its Mig-29Ks for years. It has nothing to do with the war in Ukraine.

The F/A-18 is also a better naval fighter and should win. Boeing should be able to deliver planes much more quickly than Dassault given that the Rafale line is fully booked for years. They might even just decide to procure some used F/A-18s to tide things over until the TEDBF is ready.

The F/A-18 also has the advantage of more commonality and integration with the US which is important for countires that opperate small carrier fleets that are without economies of scale. Even France relies on USN facilities for training.

https://www.boeing.co.in/products-and-s ... fa-18.page?

https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/bo ... 09.article
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Re: Indian Armed Forces

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Icedragon9 wrote: 17 Jul 2022, 18:54 The IN had been unsatisfied with the reliability of its Mig-29Ks for years. It has nothing to do with the war in Ukraine.
True. But there was the more general point, years out, to what extent the IAF (and IN) can rely on Russian support (clearly a key to any new purchases)
[quote=Icedragon9 post_id=141944 time=1658080487 user_id=1938

The F/A-18 is also a better naval fighter and should win.
[/quote]
In the closer focus, no doubt about that. But should EMALS be in the picture, what is the role for the ski jump?
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Re: Indian Armed Forces

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The F-18 in this context is only better if it can get off and back on again carrying a good war load however I think India has been looking at its time with the MIG 29K and has come to the point of view that Russia dose not have the carrier game sortied. India had spent most of there time with ex British carriers and British aircarft this move to a Russian Carrier and aircraft has not been a happy one

Pakistan is finding a similar storey with Chinese ships

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Re: Indian Armed Forces

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Tempest414 wrote: 18 Jul 2022, 09:04 I think India has been looking at its time with the MIG 29K and has come to the point of view that Russia dose not have the carrier game sortied.
The funny side of this sad saga is that the Russian navy only got their carrier Migs bcz India paid for the redesign
- the previous carrier a/c could not carry (= take off) with strike loadouts and hence were only any good for air defence
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If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Indian Armed Forces

Post by serge750 »

isn't IAC2 going to be a CATOBAR carrier ? so if supebug or rafael are picked it could be a easier transition from STOBAR to CATOBAR & all aiframes could crossdeck to gain experience

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Re: Indian Armed Forces

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serge750 wrote: 18 Jul 2022, 21:06 isn't IAC2 going to be a CATOBAR carrier ?
That was in the 2015 Request Letter to shipbuilders. While not mandating an "electromagnetic aircraft launch system" (EMALS), the letter mentioned it as an option.
- in 2017 the US manufacturer was allowed to share the tech info around EMALS

Unaware of the current direction as for the propulsion solution. The capacity for a/c was, at the time, specced with the size of Mig's K. The experience has not been a happy one (not saying anything about EMALS in the US as they do have a record of making things work... in the end) and going for Rafale/ Superbug might, in turn, increase the size of the carrier - or cut the number of a/c - as they are bigger.
- watching the whole thing with interest as the first indigenous carrier cost, after hefty overruns, four times what the lengthy refit of the ex-Russian navy carrier incurred
- are "we" headed for an other multiple (times 4)?
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Re: Indian Armed Forces

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this will depend on if they go for a British or French carrier design or not with the design work done and two built the QE class should be a known cost with only the ship yard infrastructure costs being unknown

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Re: Indian Armed Forces

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Tempest414 wrote: 22 Jul 2022, 07:49 with the design work done
The French chipped in £100 mln for the (early) blue prints... early meaning CATOBAR, among other things
- I guess the ridiculous conversion cost given for us to switch to CATOBAR is irrelevant as construction was (by then) already well under way: cutting open 200+ compartments and all that
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I would guess that the design work for CAT and trap has been done on the QE class

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Re: Indian Armed Forces

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Hmmm...
Can we also pass on - as part of the bid - the letter from the US DefSec (a fixed price guarantee to make EMALS work on QEs)?
- note: tongue in the cheek... but the Devil is in the detail
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