Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

Which Anti-Ship Missile Should be Selected for the Type 26?

Lockheed Martin LRASM
164
52%
Kongsberg NSM
78
25%
Boeing Harpoon Next Gen
44
14%
MBDA Exocet Blk III
21
7%
None (stick to guided ammo and FASGW from Helicopters)
8
3%
 
Total votes: 315

dmereifield
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by dmereifield »

Jensy wrote: 14 Nov 2022, 23:16
imperialman wrote: 14 Nov 2022, 23:07 Contract placed for the next batch of five. https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/order-p ... the-clyde/
Excellent news and congratulations on breaking the story.

I wonder how much lower BAE could go than £840m, if given an additional order.
Nice thought, but I'm more concerned with how much that will creep up when BAE start asking for more cash over the coming years. I'll eat my hat if BAE manage to deliver the 5 additional hulls for less than £5 billion

Poiuytrewq
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Jensy wrote: 14 Nov 2022, 23:16 I wonder how much lower BAE could go than £840m, if given an additional order.
Good question but also how much would a Batch3 T26 cost when compared to a T31 and T32 with similar weapons and sensors?

Looks like having competition in the UK escort building sector is actually working.
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tomuk
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

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Anthony58
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Anthony58 »

A very welcome order.

The Defence review needs to establish the timeline of Type 83, following the end of Type 26 production as BAE on the Clyde, is likely to be sole builder of the class, as Babcock will not bid for Type 83. There cannot be a gap between Type 26 and Type 83 build.

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Jensy
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Jensy »

dmereifield wrote: 14 Nov 2022, 23:40 Nice thought, but I'm more concerned with how much that will creep up when BAE start asking for more cash over the coming years. I'll eat my hat if BAE manage to deliver the 5 additional hulls for less than £5 billion
I share some degree of your scepticism, however failing to stay (broadly) within budget on Batch II is likely to cost BAE a great deal more than just reputation.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Anthony58 »

There is also high inflation over the next couple of years.

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Great news :D

"£840M each", of course inflation must be corrected (it is a 12 years long program), but it means, if RN want 3 more hulls, it will be less than £2.5B (in 2022 GBP).

RN ordered 5 T31 GP frigate (lightly armed) with £2Bn in 2019 Price = £2.3Bn in 2022 GBP (inflation corrected).

At least, it is an interesting comparison. If RN orders modified T31 as "T32", the unit cost will be lower. But, if T32 is brand new design, it will be more expensive than T31 itself (which is "mostly Iver Huiltfeldt design" with significantly reduced armaments).

In summary;
- 5 more T26 = £4.2Bn (2022 price)
- 5 new T31 = £2.3Bn GBP (inflation corrected to 2022)

which means
- 3 more T26 < £2.5Bn (2022 price) (hull 9,10,11 of T26)

PS I guess, "5 more T31" will be around £1.5Bn, and "5 new T32" will exceed £3Bn (if BAES flexible strike frigate like design).
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Repulse »

I’m sure if the RN had ordered more than 5 in the second batch the unit price would be less than £840mn per unit. Again IMO it shows whilst I can see the £250mn per hull (**cough £400mn**) concept is attractive it is not the panacea some want it to be. 3 T26s or 5 limited £400mn T31s, I know what I’d go for, and in the new world of likely peer to peer conflict need.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

JohnM
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by JohnM »

Do these £4.2B include GFE or not? Does anyone know? The T31's supposed £1.25B turned into £2B once GFE was included... I wouldn't be surprised if the final cost per hull of the Batch 2 T26s went over £1B.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

What upgrades would we like to see in batch 2?

My short list:

1. Anything to improve habitability (help retention)

2. Improved main radar - son of Artisan/Sampson

3. CEC or equivalent

4. Frikkin' lasers - Dragonfire to be precise tho' not sure if development time scales match

5. Bigger hangar - for UAV's

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by JohnM »

Ron5 wrote: 15 Nov 2022, 14:16 What upgrades would we like to see in batch 2?

My short list:

1. Anything to improve habitability (help retention)

2. Improved main radar - son of Artisan/Sampson

3. CEC or equivalent

4. Frikkin' lasers - Dragonfire to be precise tho' not sure if development time scales match

5. Bigger hangar - for UAV's
I agree, with a few possible exceptions:

1. This is a new design, so I'd expect the habitability conditions to be up to today's standards already.

2. Agreed

3. I think CEC would be more useful in the T45s, to be able to interact with the ABs in AD scenarios. I would replace that with 24 CAMM-ER or whatever they end up calling it replacing the forward 24 CAMM, for a mix of 24 CAMM-ER + 24 CAMM.

4. Agreed

5. Maybe... the hangar is already huge, and it's connected to the mission bay... I think that's enough.

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SKB
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by SKB »

Type 26 is purposely designed as an anti-submarine frigate, not as a general purpose frigate or as an air defence destroyer.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

JohnM wrote: 15 Nov 2022, 14:15 Do these £4.2B include GFE or not? Does anyone know? The T31's supposed £1.25B turned into £2B once GFE was included... I wouldn't be surprised if the final cost per hull of the Batch 2 T26s went over £1B.
Firstly, only an effing idiot divides contract value by units to determine unit cost.

If you want to determine UPC, you must isolate the build cost part of the contract and divide that by # of units.

Good luck finding that out since HMG stopped the national audit office publishing that level of detail. Way too embarrassing, CS knighthoods were at stake.

Secondly, MoD/HMG usually announces total program budget so would include every little 'ting: development, build, test, support, infrastructure, warranties, etc etc etc. Including any GFX.

Because a) it's supposed to be the way they evaluate the affordability of the program and b) UK politicians want to big up every defense contract because with their other hand they are taking the ax to other programs.

Cameron provides one of the best examples, expecting to receive a rough reception at the heads of NATO meeting in Wales because he and his pal Osbourne had just cut UK defense by 30%, he proudly announced a multi-billion contract to develop and build Ajax. Even had a prototype sitting on the adjacent golf course for the delegates to oo and ah at. Goes without saying that that was not one of the finest procurement decisions. But hey, dipshit politicians. And in Osbourne's case, plain dishonest. Are they both in the Lords yet?

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

SKB wrote: 15 Nov 2022, 14:30 Type 26 is purposely designed as an anti-submarine frigate, not as a general purpose frigate or as an air defence destroyer.
The RN doesn't do single purpose major warships any more. One of the Falklands war lessons.

JohnM
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by JohnM »

Ron5 wrote: 15 Nov 2022, 14:32
JohnM wrote: 15 Nov 2022, 14:15 Do these £4.2B include GFE or not? Does anyone know? The T31's supposed £1.25B turned into £2B once GFE was included... I wouldn't be surprised if the final cost per hull of the Batch 2 T26s went over £1B.
Firstly, only an effing idiot divides contract value by units to determine unit cost.

If you want to determine UPC, you must isolate the build cost part of the contract and divide that by # of units.

Good luck finding that out since HMG stopped the national audit office publishing that level of detail. Way too embarrassing, CS knighthoods were at stake.

Secondly, MoD/HMG usually announces total program budget so would include every little 'ting: development, build, test, support, infrastructure, warranties, etc etc etc. Including any GFX.

Because a) it's supposed to be the way they evaluate the affordability of the program and b) UK politicians want to big up every defense contract because with their other hand they are taking the ax to other programs.

Cameron provides one of the best examples, expecting to receive a rough reception at the heads of NATO meeting in Wales because he and his pal Osbourne had just cut UK defense by 30%, he proudly announced a multi-billion contract to develop and build Ajax. Even had a prototype sitting on the adjacent golf course for the delegates to oo and ah at. Goes without saying that that was not one of the finest procurement decisions. But hey, dipshit politicians. And in Osbourne's case, plain dishonest. Are they both in the Lords yet?
We’ll, when the T31 contract was signed it was for £1.25B and eventually it came out those were only the build costs and you’d have to tack on another £750 M on top for GFE… so… no, you’re wrong in what concerns the RN…

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by JohnM »

Ron5 wrote: 15 Nov 2022, 14:34
SKB wrote: 15 Nov 2022, 14:30 Type 26 is purposely designed as an anti-submarine frigate, not as a general purpose frigate or as an air defence destroyer.
The RN doesn't do single purpose major warships any more. One of the Falklands war lessons.
So… let me se if I have this straight… T45 isn’t a specialist AAW destroyer and the T26s aren’t specialist ASW frigates… right…🙄 of course every ship will perform whichever mission it’s assigned, but that doesn’t mean they weren’t designed with a specialist role in mind as the primary focus…

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

SKB wrote: 15 Nov 2022, 14:30 Type 26 is purposely designed as an anti-submarine frigate, not as a general purpose frigate or as an air defence destroyer.
Dear SKB-san.

Cough...

Ummm. If you say "general purpose frigate" in RN, it means "long-range sloop".

Cough...

I think you meant "multi-purpose frigate" here.

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

JohnM wrote: 15 Nov 2022, 14:46 We’ll, when the T31 contract was signed it was for £1.25B and eventually it came out those were only the build costs and you’d have to tack on another £750 M on top for GFE… so… no, you’re wrong in what concerns the RN…
Yes and No. It was clearly stated that it is a £2Bn program.

I understand Babcock announced it got £1.25Bn contract, which is correct.

So, two numbers appeared at the same time.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by JohnM »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 15 Nov 2022, 15:12
JohnM wrote: 15 Nov 2022, 14:46 We’ll, when the T31 contract was signed it was for £1.25B and eventually it came out those were only the build costs and you’d have to tack on another £750 M on top for GFE… so… no, you’re wrong in what concerns the RN…
Yes and No. It was clearly stated that it is a £2Bn program.

I understand Babcock announced it got £1.25Bn contract, which is correct.

So, two numbers appeared at the same time.
So, are these £4.2B the total contract value, including GFE, or the amount to be paid to BAE? My question stands…

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

JohnM wrote: 15 Nov 2022, 15:19
donald_of_tokyo wrote: 15 Nov 2022, 15:12
JohnM wrote: 15 Nov 2022, 14:46 We’ll, when the T31 contract was signed it was for £1.25B and eventually it came out those were only the build costs and you’d have to tack on another £750 M on top for GFE… so… no, you’re wrong in what concerns the RN…
Yes and No. It was clearly stated that it is a £2Bn program.

I understand Babcock announced it got £1.25Bn contract, which is correct.

So, two numbers appeared at the same time.
So, are these £4.2B the total contract value, including GFE, or the amount to be paid to BAE? My question stands…
I understand it is total. Of course, it is better to be confirmed. (let's hope George-san or Xavier-san can do it?)

At least "£3.7Bn" for the first three included everything (even the cost of long-lead items ordered before the contract).

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Tempest414
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

We need to take this into context the first 3 have cost 3.93 Billion 3.7 + 233 K over spend the second Batch is now 4.2 billion meaning all 8 ships cost 8 billion or 1 billion per ship or we can say the Batch ones cost 1.33 billion per ship and the Batch two 850 million if this is the case I would say WTF

Jake1992
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Jake1992 »

BAE did say they could of built 9 for the same cost if HMG had ordered all st once, you then have the sow build which I wouldn’t be shocked if it’s more to do with HMG again than BAE
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

Had they got all the money and built 9 ships this would have made them 890 million per ship better than the 8 we are getting but I would have been more impressed if they had said they could have built 10 for the 8 billion up front or 800 million per ship

Now some here dig type 31 but lets say we built 8 for 4 billion we could have seen a type 31 with what it has today plus

8 x NSM
36 CAMM
5 x Containerised TAS shared between the 8 ships
maybe even fitted with a HMS

Making it a every nice global frigate

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by SW1 »

So 4.2billion for 5 ships on top of 3.7 b and counting for the first 3 with no medium/long range anti air capability, no anti ship capability, no land attack capability and no offensive anti submarine capability is that roughly what we saying.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

SW1 wrote: 16 Nov 2022, 10:34 So 4.2billion for 5 ships on top of 3.7 b and counting for the first 3 with no medium/long range anti air capability, no anti ship capability, no land attack capability and no offensive anti submarine capability is that roughly what we saying.
Yep that is what they are saying 8.17 billion for 8 ships that still need a ton of kit added to do there job so right now type 26 is 170 million over budget and the first isn't in the water. Kills any dream around here that ship 9 could be built for 800 million or less I can see the cost hitting 1.2 billion per ship

Makes me lol that people slam type 31 for not having this weapon or that weapon yet skim over the fact that type 26 is missing the same weapons

Plus now more than before makes me think that if we went down the BAE type 32 ASF it would cost 550 to 650 million per ship
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