Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

Which Anti-Ship Missile Should be Selected for the Type 26?

Lockheed Martin LRASM
164
52%
Kongsberg NSM
78
25%
Boeing Harpoon Next Gen
44
14%
MBDA Exocet Blk III
21
7%
None (stick to guided ammo and FASGW from Helicopters)
8
3%
 
Total votes: 315

tomuk
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

NickC wrote: 07 Jul 2022, 11:20 T26 slipped another full year towards end 2028 as reported above, 12 years from start of build, Mark Francois Con asked why Japanese can build Mogami class in 3 years (5th ship launched in June).
Although Japanese production is certainly quicker we must be careful, unlike Mr Francois, not to compare Apples and Oranges. The Mogamis are a smaller GP vessel compared to T26. Also what definition is used for commissioned\IOC\FOC, etc, Mogami I understand doesn't have any VLS installed.

Also lets not forget that Japan is probably third largest ship building country in the world after China and South Korea.
NickC wrote: Adm Gardner Director General (Ships) excuses for the delay due to Covid, lack of eng'g maturity of the BAE design and supply chain, MF sarcastically asked if Covid didn't effect the Japanese, what the was the T26 lack of eng'g maturity was not explained, the supply chain (the David Brown MGR, Ben Wallace Defence secretary had read the riot act to the DB).
On the one hand COVID is a bit of a poor excuse but the impact and approach to COVID is vastly different between Japan and the UK. It has only been a month since they lifted their travel ban.

As regards T26 engineering maturity and gearbox issues. Is it surprising when we haven't ordered any gearboxes for twenty years since the last T23. Maybe we shouldn't have thrown out the intercooler with the bath water and carried on the IEP lineage of T45.

NickC
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by NickC »

tomuk wrote: 07 Jul 2022, 14:52 As regards T26 engineering maturity and gearbox issues. Is it surprising when we haven't ordered any gearboxes for twenty years since the last T23.
My understanding the T26 DB MGR development was based on that of the Astute DB gearbox, if so much more recent than 20 years ago.

PS Think Dreadnought moving to US all electric shaft propulsion developed for the Columbia?, quieter than a mechanical gearbox.

tomuk
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

NickC wrote: 07 Jul 2022, 16:48
My understanding the T26 DB MGR development was based on that of the Astute DB gearbox, if so much more recent than 20 years ago.
HMS Astute was laid down 21 years ago so I would imagine it's gearbox design was done before then, if not earlier based on that fitted to the V or T boats.

A drumbeat needs to be maintained not just in ship building and design but also component and system design and build too.
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Cooper »

tomuk wrote: 07 Jul 2022, 14:52 On the one hand COVID is a bit of a poor excuse
Not really, when you think who is in charge of Covid policy up there. That toxic little maniac gimp, Sturgeon. Who has spent the last 2yrs grandstanding and constantly throwing her weight around with more stringent lockdowns, just so as to be seen as being 'different' from the rest of the UK.
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tomuk
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

Maybe poor excuse was the wrong word. Covid has clearly caused issues all over but whatever the actual effect of restrictions has been to trot that well used excuse out in front of a select committee is no ideal.

pko100
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by pko100 »

The delay in the type 26 is unforgiveable. Remember that lessons were meant to be learnt from the type 45 programme with respect to a new weapon system, command system, sensor system with 80 % of the equipment being developed for the class. The type 26 was designed to reverse that figure by maximising the re-use of systems from the type 23 lifex so making it low risk. HMS Glasgow should really be in service now. (5 years after build start)
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by SomeoneAh »

Is there a date the first Type 26 will be launched? An article said it will be second quarter of 2022 but it past already. And why the IOC will slip into 2028, i thought they were ahead of schedule for a year.

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RichardIC
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by RichardIC »

They’re behind schedule by 12 months on Glasgow. Combination of COVID and issues with the gearbox.

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SKB
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by SKB »

See, told you they should've been built in Portsmouth....

Jdam
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Jdam »

building ships in Portsmouth speeds up gearbox manufacturing :?: :think:

SomeoneAh
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by SomeoneAh »

It is totally unbelievable that they went from ahead of schedule 12 moth to behind 12 moth. And i assume the over budget cost will be pay by BAE them self from what i had read before right ?

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RichardIC
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by RichardIC »

The gearbox issues were unrelated to BAE. They're manufactured by David Brown Santasalo in Huddersfield.


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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by wargame_insomniac »

No mention of Mk41 VLS.
:(

Bring Deeps
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Bring Deeps »

NickC wrote: 07 Jul 2022, 11:20 T26 slipped another full year towards end 2028 as reported above, 12 years from start of build, Mark Francois Con asked why Japanese can build Mogami class in 3 years (5th ship launched in June).

Adm Gardner Director General (Ships) excuses for the delay due to Covid, lack of eng'g maturity of the BAE design and supply chain, MF sarcastically asked if Covid didn't effect the Japanese, what the was the T26 lack of eng'g maturity was not explained, the supply chain (the David Brown MGR, Ben Wallace Defence secretary had read the riot act to the DB).

Thanks for posting this. Made for interesting listening. Ben Wallace came across as competent and on top of things (apart from not knowing how many Bay class the RN has).

Jdam
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Jdam »

wargame_insomniac wrote: 16 Jul 2022, 11:08
No mention of Mk41 VLS.
:(
I dont think anything we own would work with the MK41?

I absolutely despise the "fitted for but not with" we have adopted recently but maybe in this one occasion HMS Glasgow should be launched without the Mk41 and get it fitted at a later point, I don't know but maybe it would help speed up the build and commissioning a bit. I think another hull in the water would be more helpful than something with the Mk41 that we have nothing to use with it at the moment.

(The fear with that is Glasgow would never get it but I am thinking of ways of speeding thing up)

Caribbean
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Caribbean »

I think the "Future Offensive Surface Weapon" is supposed to go in the Mk 41 - there is no mention of deck launchers for the T26. Presumably the FOSW will end up being whatever FC/ASW turns out as. At the current build rate, we have a while before we need to make any decisions about other systems. I'm not going to panic yet :)

Hopefully we also hang on to the interim NSM systems, after FC/ASW arrives, for use on T31/32 (or maybe even the RB2s :twisted: )
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

SomeoneAh
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by SomeoneAh »

wargame_insomniac wrote: 16 Jul 2022, 11:08
No mention of Mk41 VLS.
:(
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/bae-sys ... 6-frigate/

Actually, the Type 26 are going to fit with MK41 VlS when launch, it was already included when the Royal Navy payed for the Type26, and contract has already been awards by BAE to Lockheed, so i am pretty sure the MK41 will be on Type 26, but i wish the Royal Navy will fit more MK41 VLS to their ship such as the Type 31, Type 45.
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by wargame_insomniac »

Jdam wrote: 16 Jul 2022, 11:18
wargame_insomniac wrote: 16 Jul 2022, 11:08
No mention of Mk41 VLS.
:(
I dont think anything we own would work with the MK41?

I absolutely despise the "fitted for but not with" we have adopted recently but maybe in this one occasion HMS Glasgow should be launched without the Mk41 and get it fitted at a later point, I don't know but maybe it would help speed up the build and commissioning a bit. I think another hull in the water would be more helpful than something with the Mk41 that we have nothing to use with it at the moment.

(The fear with that is Glasgow would never get it but I am thinking of ways of speeding thing up)
My view is that if you are running late for overall launch, e.g. due to the issues with gearbox, then you would actually have enough time to fit the Mk 41 VLS, rather than further time out of the water in subsequent refit.

We need a wider variety of missiles other than jst Sea ceptor, including Anti-Ship and Anti-Submarine. As others have mentioned, the FC/ASW missile seems to be most likely to be VLS rather than Canister launched.

And for a ship specialising in Anti-Submarine it feels a risk to have the only ASW weapon to be launched from helicopters. Because the T26 unlike the T23 does nt have Torpedo Tubes. So in my opinion the RN needs ASROC or an equivalent.

It all comes back to mantra of increased lethality for RN. If this is not just to be empty words then RN needs missiles suitable for use against targets on land/sea/air/submarine. The V41 VLS is the best way of ensuring a decent spread of such missiles available.

Jdam
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Jdam »

wargame_insomniac wrote: 16 Jul 2022, 15:47
And for a ship specialising in Anti-Submarine it feels a risk to have the only ASW weapon to be launched from helicopters. Because the T26 unlike the T23 does nt have Torpedo Tubes. So in my opinion the RN needs ASROC or an equivalent.
Could you use the VL-ASROC kit to launch Sting Ray? I assume its like the kit that is added to the tomahawk for sub launched missiles.

tomuk
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

Jdam wrote: 16 Jul 2022, 18:14
Could you use the VL-ASROC kit to launch Sting Ray? I assume its like the kit that is added to the tomahawk for sub launched missiles.
Stingray is similar in weight and size to the Mk54 fitted to the latest VL-ASROC so in theory you could. Of course you would need various mods to actually get it to work and loads of money then on trials and qualification of a production version.

There is also the Japanese developed Type 07 which is faster and longer ranged then VL-ASROC.
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by serge750 »

If the 1st T26 is in service in 2028, i hope we would have a good 5years from now to sort out what goes in the mk41....ie 2022 to 2027, im not concernd yet, if by 2025 nothing has been outlined then iwould be....ps since we are collaberating more with the japanese maybe their ASROC could be high on list....
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Jdam »

Image

I was in the area today, not too much to see with all the welding blockers on her.
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Aviation Week:
UK Dragonfire Laser Begins Firing Trials by Tony Osborne

The MBDA-led team developing the UK Dragonfire laser has undertaken the first firings of the directed-energy weapon.

Low-power firings of the laser undertaken in the Outer Hebrides, Scotland, proved the system “can successfully track air and sea targets with exceptionally high accuracy,” MBDA announced July 17.

These tests will then pave the way for a static high-power laser trial, before a series of engagements in operationally representative scenarios.

The 50 kW-class laser has been developed by the Dragonfire consortium, which includes the UK Defense Ministry, MBDA, Leonardo, QinetiQ and the UK Defense Science and Technology Laboratory (DSTL).

Development has been slowed by a series of technical problems, and was subsequently impacted by the pandemic. Trials had originally been due to take place in 2019.

“The success of these trials is a key step in the development of sovereign laser directed energy weapons,” says Chris Allam, Managing Director of MBDA UK.

He says the weapon used “unique innovations” that would test “the very limits of what of what is physically possible in the laser weapons domain.”

MBDA says the initial trial used a low-power QinetiQ-developed laser, Leonardo’s beam director and MBDA’s Image Processing and Control technology for the fine pointing and tracking accuracy, which will be required to generate the damage effect when a high-powered laser will be used. Other subsystems proved in the trial include the command and control, the effector management system (EMS) and “coarse” tracking, turning the laser toward the target.

The British approach is to use a fiber laser that uses tens of glass fibers through which light is shone. The benefit of using this approach is that the light is stable, but the challenge comes with aligning and combining the numerous beams into one single powerful parallel beam. The UK approach to combining the beams remains secret.

A turret will house the laser and associated targeting systems including an electro-optical camera and a second lower-power laser for imaging and tracking. Adaptive optics help to deal with the impact of the atmosphere, fast mirrors like those used on optical telescopes compensate for the variations found in the air due to temperature.

A turret will house the laser and associated targeting systems including an electro-optical camera and a second lower-power laser for imaging and tracking. Adaptive optics help to deal with the impact of the atmosphere, fast mirrors like those used on optical telescopes compensate for the variations found in the air due to temperature.

The Dragonfire consortium secured Defense Science and Technology Laboratories’ £30 million ($39 million) Laser Directed Energy Weapon Capability Demonstrator (LDEW-CD) back in 2016.
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »



"Hunter class weight issues have now be largely resolved by small increase in beam"

Interesting. Can the RN Batch2 T26 be also the "broad beam version"? It will significantly contribute to increase the "margin" in the weight, internal volume, and top weight. As T26 is all-digital design, each and every modification of Hunter class design can be shared with Clyde shipyards. I understand the digital issue is, detailed even up to a single screw, and include the build and verification process.

This detailed information sharing was the essence of T26's design. When a small modification in design be adopted in the factory, it is immediately reflected into the ship digital design, and shared.

Also, on the beam broadening, we all know Leander class frigate has a Batch3 broad-beam variant. It worked well, to my understanding, if it is "small increase". Leander Batch3 had 2-feet (~60 cm) of broadening over the original 12.5m beam.
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