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Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

Which Anti-Ship Missile Should be Selected for the Type 26?

Lockheed Martin LRASM
144
52%
Kongsberg NSM
63
23%
Boeing Harpoon Next Gen
43
16%
MBDA Exocet Blk III
19
7%
None (stick to guided ammo and FASGW from Helicopters)
8
3%
 
Total votes: 277

Aethulwulf
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Aethulwulf » 19 Jan 2020, 22:07

Jake1992 wrote:
RetroSicotte wrote:Why is everyone assuming they are CAMM?

Canada already uses ESSM. It's far more likely they'll just pack that in instead.

Altogether an impressive ship. Wish the City class could take some lessons from it...


Iv said it before not only are we ordering the smallest number of our own design but also arming them to the weakest spec, this won’t look good on the UK and RN on the world stage really.
As I have said before, there is no logic to this thinking, other than weak fantasy fulfillment.

Each nation is buying to meet their own needs.

For the Canadians, the T26 will be pretty much their only Navy combat vessel. They have no aircraft carriers, no amphibious ships, no nuclear submarines. So of course they want their future frigate to be truly multi-role ASW, AAW & ASuW. Their geography is such that they need to operate in both the Atlantic and Pacific simultaneously, and ships can not quickly move between the two oceans. They need an Atlantic fleet and a Pacific fleet (and an Arctic fleet), so they need numbers.

For the Australians, the T26s will be working alongside just 3 Hobart AAW destroyers primarily to protect their amphibious task group. With just 3 AAW destroyers and no aircraft carrier, of course they need their T26s to have excellent AAW capabilities as well as ASW.

By all means argue that the UK needs more T26s, or they should be better equipped. But support your arguments on the basis of why the UK needs such capabilities and for what tasks.

To say that we need more T26 or more capable T26 just because we have to over-match two of our closest allies is nonsense. We will not be fighting Canada or Australia. The RN needs to spend its budget to meet its actual needs and not spend it so you can win a game of top trumps.

calculus
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby calculus » 19 Jan 2020, 22:42

Ron5 wrote:Except ExLs doesn't fit ESSM so that will always be filled with CAMM.

(in answer to calculus)

Of course. Could have as many as 128 ESSM in the 32 MK41 cells, and 24 CAMM in the 6 ExLS cells.

RetroSicotte
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby RetroSicotte » 20 Jan 2020, 00:09

Aethulwulf wrote:By all means argue that the UK needs more T26s, or they should be better equipped. But support your arguments on the basis of why the UK needs such capabilities and for what tasks.

To say that we need more T26 or more capable T26 just because we have to over-match two of our closest allies is nonsense. We will not be fighting Canada or Australia. The RN needs to spend its budget to meet its actual needs and not spend it so you can win a game of top trumps.

A fine point to always back up a statement with reasoning. Although I am cautious of this becoming an "it should be fitted with" discussion in the News thread, which was why I chose a hopefully unantagonistic langauge of "take lessons from". In short, in relation to the lack of radar/medium-long air defence on the Type 26, which I feel are too little for a 2030's ship contrasted to the need for every ship to have some degree of missile defence that doesn't rely on short notice in the long range world of then.

Again, this is not a discussion for this topic when taken in depth, so I shan't go into depth on it.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Timmymagic » 20 Jan 2020, 10:40

Ron5 wrote:Except ExLs doesn't fit ESSM so that will always be filled with CAMM.

(in answer to calculus)


ExLS at present is a pure Sea Ceptor launch system. Some graphics showing other load outs are so dated they actually include NLOS...the most recent include RAM Blk.2, Nulka and Hellfire/JAGM. But none have been trialled or funded. Which I have to say is a surprise. Hellfire/JAGM in its only VL incarnation to date on LCS is a different, much simpler launcher, Nulka - why would you waste a VL tube when you can have one of the easy to site dedicated launchers elsewhere at a lower cost? And RAM Blk.2 has 2 different, standalone launchers available including self contained SeaRAM so why bother?

It looks like MBDA have got a dedicated launcher with lots of potential developed for free by accident...

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Ron5 » 20 Jan 2020, 18:35

calculus wrote:
Ron5 wrote:Except ExLs doesn't fit ESSM so that will always be filled with CAMM.

(in answer to calculus)

Of course. Could have as many as 128 ESSM in the 32 MK41 cells, and 24 CAMM in the 6 ExLS cells.


Huh? You said it could be an all ESSM fit. Never mind ...

Ron5
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Ron5 » 20 Jan 2020, 18:36

Timmymagic wrote:
Ron5 wrote:Except ExLs doesn't fit ESSM so that will always be filled with CAMM.

(in answer to calculus)


ExLS at present is a pure Sea Ceptor launch system. Some graphics showing other load outs are so dated they actually include NLOS...the most recent include RAM Blk.2, Nulka and Hellfire/JAGM. But none have been trialled or funded. Which I have to say is a surprise. Hellfire/JAGM in its only VL incarnation to date on LCS is a different, much simpler launcher, Nulka - why would you waste a VL tube when you can have one of the easy to site dedicated launchers elsewhere at a lower cost? And RAM Blk.2 has 2 different, standalone launchers available including self contained SeaRAM so why bother?

It looks like MBDA have got a dedicated launcher with lots of potential developed for free by accident...


It's by Lockheed so definitely not free to buy or maintain!!

calculus
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby calculus » 20 Jan 2020, 20:04

Ron5 wrote:
calculus wrote:
Ron5 wrote:Except ExLs doesn't fit ESSM so that will always be filled with CAMM.

(in answer to calculus)

Of course. Could have as many as 128 ESSM in the 32 MK41 cells, and 24 CAMM in the 6 ExLS cells.


Huh? You said it could be an all ESSM fit. Never mind ...


I just re-read what I posted originally, and I can see how you would think that, so my apologies for the confusion. It seemed clear to me. :)

I should been more specific in stating that the ExLS was a constant (at 24 CAMM), with the 32 MK41s presenting the option to go all ESSM (for a maximum of 128).

tomuk
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby tomuk » 20 Jan 2020, 20:25

Why would you want to fit a ship with both CAMM and ESSM (block 2)? They are functionally the same missile.

Timmymagic
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Timmymagic » 20 Jan 2020, 20:35

tomuk wrote:Why would you want to fit a ship with both CAMM and ESSM (block 2)? They are functionally the same missile.


ESSM Blk.2 will have greater range than standard Sea Ceptor. Obviously CAMM-ER will be competitive with ESSM Blk.2, but the Canadian's will be running their upgraded Halifax for quite a few years yet before they're totally replaced. The Halifax Class have ESSM and may have to have ESSM Blk.2 to remain viable for some of the intervening years until CSC arrives. Using ESSM Blk.2 would enable the Canadian's to bridge the gap whilst minimising expenditure on munitions that are then discarded if they went for a full Sea Ceptor and CAMM-ER fit. Having some commonality with the US is also important to Canada.

I do wonder if the CSC models get Phalanx mounted in the same position as the RN T26 in due course though, as the Canadian's recently upgraded their Phalanx to 1B standard (although each Halifax Class only has 1 so to equip all 15 T26 with Phalanx they'll need to buy 15 more). Mind you it might indicate that the Canadians don't see Phalanx as viable by the time that CSC arrives (which may have also driven the SeaRAM installation that was originally shown, a way to re-use the Phalanx mounts that with Sea Ceptor is not necessary?)

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Timmymagic » 20 Jan 2020, 20:42

Ron5 wrote:It's by Lockheed so definitely not free to buy or maintain!!


That is true. But I bet the LM product manager for ExLS is thanking their lucky stars that MBDA and Sea Ceptor rolled into town, otherwise they'd be sitting on a massive flop at present (despite the idea being fundamentally sound).

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby SKB » 26 Jan 2020, 10:08


Image
^ Bow superblock UA/UB. See assembly diagram: https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/buildi ... 6-frigate/

Jdam
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Jdam » 26 Jan 2020, 11:48

Still nearly 2 years away from launch according to Navy Lookout tweet :wtf:

The one guy in the photo must be the only one working on it :P

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donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 26 Jan 2020, 13:35

From recent official documents, it was shown that the 1st T31 will “go into service” on 2027, the same timing as the 1st T26 “commissions”. Also the document confirms, all 5 T31 will be “handed over” to RN by 2028, but no commission date for the 5th hull was shown.

The 1st T26 will be handed over to RN on 2025, while the 1st T31 also will be handed over around the same timing.

I cannot stop thinking, by investing (the now inflated) 2B GBP cost of 5 T31 into T26, RN would have had 3 more (in total 11) T26s. And, with 6+11 = 17 Tier-1 escorts, the building drumbeat of “Tier-1 escort shipyard” must have been faster, and hence cheaper.

Slow build of T26 is sad thing, but quite logical. Faster build (without increase in hull number) will result in big gap before T45 replacement, repeating the SSN (and T26 = River B2) issues.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Ron5 » 26 Jan 2020, 16:24

Shorter life plus bigger fleet equals quicker build, cheaper ships plus better export prospects

20 year life plus 20 ship escort fleet equals one new ship a year

Also saves on expensive lifex refits, helps retention (new ships more pleasant to work in), influence abroad thru sales of used ships etc.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Ron5 » 26 Jan 2020, 16:26

Jdam wrote:Still nearly 2 years away from launch according to Navy Lookout tweet :wtf:

The one guy in the photo must be the only one working on it :P


Did he have a tube of glue in his hand then?

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby bobp » 26 Jan 2020, 17:14

Ron5 wrote:Did he have a tube of glue in his hand then?


:clap: :lolno: :lolno: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby dmereifield » 26 Jan 2020, 21:18

Ron5 wrote:
Jdam wrote:Still nearly 2 years away from launch according to Navy Lookout tweet :wtf:

The one guy in the photo must be the only one working on it :P


Did he have a tube of glue in his hand then?


No, for a high end escort you use silicone, not glue

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donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 27 Jan 2020, 01:24

donald_of_tokyo wrote:From recent official documents, it was shown that the 1st T31 will “go into service” on 2027, the same timing as the 1st T26 “commissions”. Also the document confirms, all 5 T31 will be “handed over” to RN by 2028, but no commission date for the 5th hull was shown.

The 1st T26 will be handed over to RN on 2025, while the 1st T31 also will be handed over around the same timing.
Correction to the time line.

<1st T26>
- 2017 : cutting steel
- 2021 : hit the water
- 2025 (EDIT: not 2023) : delivered (=handed over) to RN (*1) (*3)
- 2027 : commission

<1st T31>
- 2021 : cutting steel (*2)
- 2023 : hit the water
- 2025 : delivered (=handed over) to RN
- 2027 : "in service"

(am I correct?)

*1: [EDIT] Recent UKDJ article states 2023, but it may be wrong. (If this is true, the crew is needed "by" 2023, from decommissioning Argyll). Note, once it was announced 2025 to my memory. In this case, T26 hull-1's crew will come from either HMS Lancaster or Iron Duke.

*2: They need to build a hall before cutting the steel. Babcock has only 23 months from now, until Dec 2021. Is it doable?

*3: I understand 2nd T26 follows her with 2 year shift in "start of build". This means her delivery will be much earlier than "2 years shift", In other words, 2nd T26 will be "delivered" in "early 2027".

dmereifield
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby dmereifield » 27 Jan 2020, 12:54

A decade from cutting steel to in commission for the 1st T26, surely not

Aethulwulf
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Aethulwulf » 27 Jan 2020, 13:00

No. No idea where Donald got his dates from...

...but as I understand it for T26 first delivery to RN and commissioning likely to be 2025, with first operational deployment in 2027.

Construction and fit out to be finished in 2023, with contractor sea trials in 2024.

But dates are not fixed, and there is lots of wiggle room in the programme for the first of class.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 27 Jan 2020, 13:14

Aethulwulf wrote:No. No idea where Donald got his dates from...

...but as I understand it for T26 first delivery to RN and commissioning likely to be 2025, with first operational deployment in 2027.

Construction and fit out to be finished in 2023, with contractor sea trials in 2024.

But dates are not fixed, and there is lots of wiggle room in the programme for the first of class.
Thanks. "2023 delivered" is from the UKDJ article, so it's wrong. Thanks.
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/first-t ... the-clyde/

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby xav » 30 Jan 2020, 08:38

Royal Navy’s First Type 26 Frigate HMS Glasgow More Than Half Built
HMS Glasgow – the first of the Royal Navy’s Type 26 frigates – is now more than half-way through construction at BAE Systems Govan shipyard.

The next generation frigate is being built in numerous sections, or ‘units’, with the fore and aft sections of the 8,000-tonne warship being built separately. From there, once complete, the units are wheeled to the ship block and outfit hall where they are joined together and pipes and cabling linked up.

Just over half of HMS Glasgow is now complete or under construction, out of eight planned vessels in the class (all are named, three have been ordered, two are in build at Govan – HMS Cardiff is No.2).

Once the fore and aft sections are complete they will be joined on the hard in front of the block hall, before the bridge/main mast are craned into place.

The completed ship will then be ‘launched’ by being lowered into the Clyde via a barge, then towed downstream to BAE’s yard at Scotstoun to complete fitting out.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... alf-built/

Regarding dates, I am still being cautious and using: The first Type 26 warship, HMS Glasgow, will enter service in the mid-2020s. Designed for a service life of at least 25 years, the Type 26 frigates will serve in the future Royal Navy surface fleet into the 2060s.
And in the video (from DSEI), Geoff Searle says HMS Glasgow will enter the water in the "early 2020ies"

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby bobp » 30 Jan 2020, 20:26

Would be nice to see more pictures of the T26 build. Not much coming out of BAe.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby shark bait » 31 Jan 2020, 08:01

There's only one Bloke working on it, give him a chance!
@LandSharkUK

Scimitar54
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Scimitar54 » 31 Jan 2020, 08:51

Well the MOD said they wanted a low head count! :mrgreen:


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