UK Defence Forum

Pseudo wrote:I made a similar point elsewhere.

If the Astute programme had been started a decade earlier

Yes, it was similar. But I was trying to say, not what-if, but "if only " the plans already in place had been stuck to we would now be in a much better place
- we both attribute the reasons similarly
- but Hammond was already quoted saying that the 7th A-boat would get the new type of reactor, but then that was reversed again. I have analysed the reasons for that (which have not been published) at length, here

SSN Availability has been too low for a while now, this sounds like its only going to make things worse, RN do appear to be in a bad situation with their boats.

Trenchant is an old boat, pushed beyond the original design specification, so it's not surprising to see issues like this arise. A fracture in a coolant pipe is a, not worth repairing for such an old reactor, perhaps we will see the decommissioning schedule being rearranged.

It's a long road before the RN can increase its SSN availability, it's stuck in a rut for a long while. Any ways out?

shark bait wrote:SSN Availability has been too low for a while now, this sounds like its only going to make things worse, RN do appear to be in a bad situation with their boats.

Trenchant is an old boat, pushed beyond the original design specification, so it's not surprising to see issues like this arise. A fracture in a coolant pipe is a, not worth repairing for such an old reactor, perhaps we will see the decommissioning schedule being rearranged.

It's a long road before the RN can increase its SSN availability, it's stuck in a rut for a long while. Any ways out?

Nope.

abc123 wrote:

shark bait wrote:SSN Availability has been too low for a while now, this sounds like its only going to make things worse, RN do appear to be in a bad situation with their boats.

Trenchant is an old boat, pushed beyond the original design specification, so it's not surprising to see issues like this arise. A fracture in a coolant pipe is a, not worth repairing for such an old reactor, perhaps we will see the decommissioning schedule being rearranged.

It's a long road before the RN can increase its SSN availability, it's stuck in a rut for a long while. Any ways out?

Nope.

Pretty much this. The issue is that to sustain the required construction tempo to maintain submarine building skills the RN needs something in the region of 12 SSN and 4 SSBN. This suggests that the optimum solution would be two six boat SSN classes, a periodic "new" design and a follow on evolution of that design; like the Swiftsures and Trafalgars. This is probably what it takes to keep the design and build skills going. So a 3 class design and build cycle: 6, 6, 4. That way we won't see another Astute-style gap with a follow-on systemic failure to deliver the necessary number of boats on time and on budget.

Engaging Strategy wrote:

abc123 wrote:

shark bait wrote:SSN Availability has been too low for a while now, this sounds like its only going to make things worse, RN do appear to be in a bad situation with their boats.

Trenchant is an old boat, pushed beyond the original design specification, so it's not surprising to see issues like this arise. A fracture in a coolant pipe is a, not worth repairing for such an old reactor, perhaps we will see the decommissioning schedule being rearranged.

It's a long road before the RN can increase its SSN availability, it's stuck in a rut for a long while. Any ways out?

Nope.

Pretty much this. The issue is that to sustain the required construction tempo to maintain submarine building skills the RN needs something in the region of 12 SSN and 4 SSBN. This suggests that the optimum solution would be two six boat SSN classes, a periodic "new" design and a follow on evolution of that design; like the Swiftsures and Trafalgars. This is probably what it takes to keep the design and build skills going. So a 3 class design and build cycle: 6, 6, 4. That way we won't see another Astute-style gap with a follow-on systemic failure to deliver the necessary number of boats on time and on budget.

Yep.

Or, as James Matthis said:

"Every our sucess is because someone did it's job properly 20 years ago. Every failure is because someone didn't do it's job properly 20 years ago."

There's no better example for that than in shipbuilding and especially in submarine building.

It's a massive rut, industrial capacity is taken with successor for decades, then the rut gets bigger because the Astutes will life expire before the last Dreadnought is built, leading to a repeat of the low T-boat availability we are seeing today.

It's a very difficult rut to get out of, like the comments above suggests these things take dacades to come into fruition.

We did not even manage a frigate factory!

It would be easy enough to put up another big "shed" in Barrow, to scale up the parallel build.

More difficult to man it.

And even then the reactor cores would flow into the overall process from a single line (that still needs to switch over to the new design)
- that is the real bottleneck; forgetting about trivial things, like money. Hey! We have had the printer press running for almost a decade and can still lock in v low interest rates on additional borrowing

For a great drumbeat (with increased MOD budget) I'd love to see 2 batches of 8 SSN's with the 2nd batch having incremental updates, at 1 per year, then 1 batch of 4 SSBN's at 1 per 2 years giving a 24 year replacement schedule.

HMS Torbay decommissioned


HMS Torbay (S90)

Laid down: 3rd December 1982
Launched: 8th March 1985
Sponsored by: Lady Ann Herbert
Commissioned: 7th February 1987
Decommissioned: 14th July 2017, Devonport.
Total Distance Travelled in 32 years: 705,600 miles
Dived Distance Travelled: 544760 miles, 3162.5 days spent at sea, 2415 days under water
Port visits (not including base port visits): Approximately 70
Number of crew who have served on board: ~ 2500
Basic submarine qualifications completed: ~ 1850
Meals eaten at sea: ~ 379,440
Perisher (submarine command course) courses hosted: 7
Interesting Fact: HMS Torbay was the first ever British warship to be controlled using the Microsoft Windows operating system.

4 Trafalgar Class now decommissioned, with 3 still in service.


^ HMS Torbay flying her paying off pennant on 19th June 2017.


HMS Torbay's Crew parade through Torbay
The crew of nuclear submarine HMS Torbay paraded through Torquay on Wednesday (19th July 2017) afternoon as they officially handed back the Honourary Freedom of Torbay after the decommissioning of the submarine. There were emotional scenes as the decommissioning ceremony itself took place at Devonport last week.

The freedom of the borough was presented to them by Mayor Gordon Oliver in 2015. Wednesday's parade, from the Town Hall through the town centre to the harbour and seafront, marked the official handing-back of the honour.

Lots of green around her waterline, sailed back on the surface all the way? Is that the Norm for Subs about to decommission?
I remember when she was launched, it was all over the News. Back in the days when such an event was met with a positive reaction. Very Sad to see her go, but inevitable.

(RN)

Royal Navy submarine HMS Trenchant has broken through the metre-thick ice of the Arctic Ocean to join two US boats on major exercise ICEX18.

Ice Station Zebra or Firefox?!

Trenchant did some surfaces and dives east of Gibraltar shortly after commissioning taking the time of diving and timing of her surfacing plotting the distance covered her actual speed was well in excess of what was declared as the top speed. I was told that the outer hull covering was reinforced to allow the submarine to push up through the ice. I presumed this was to allow the conning tower and surrounding deck area to push through. I didn't expect the whole sub to surface. Or is the polar ice now that thin that the whole sub can surface. I wonder if the astute class would damage there sonar equipment on there hull flanks if they were to surface so.

Some more footage of HMS Trenchant on exercise on the Arctic.
https://youtu.be/9mDlNBU4-z0

Phil R

Sub building set to go the way of Aircraft building and future procurement. Buy from Uncle Sam!
Not suggesting that is the right thing to do, as having the 'best' is not always the point of building yourself. You need to be better than any possible realistic enemy.
If we don't start getting serious soon about sustainable build numbers, it will be regretted forever!
I agree, 6 6 4 makes total sense. As does three main Combatative types for Surface Fleet.

Are you suggesting the cancellation of the 7th Astute?

No. Not at all, I was just agreeing that two class of 6 boats would be logical. As the idea is the follow on class is Evolution rather than Revolution. So the follow on to Astute would in effect be a class of 5 batch 2 Astute, with the next class (6) being a complete new design and so on.

or the next batch of six is a Dreadnought derivative, then six clean sheet hunter killers?

It's a real problem, because as you pointed out, there just isn't the capacity to replace Astute on time let alone build another 5 To give us 12 without the Batch 1's being spent. Could Batch 1 be refuelled??

Maybe Canada could lend us our old subs back?!

Digger22 wrote:It's a real problem, because as you pointed out, there just isn't the capacity to replace Astute on time let alone build another 5 To give us 12 without the Batch 1's being spent. Could Batch 1 be refuelled??

Exactly, time lines do no align nicely, from what I can tell Astute will have to be life extended, and that may or may not include a refueling. Unfortunately unlike the others, the Americans (and by default the Brits), do not build refueling hatches into their subs, making refueling a very difficult operation.

Spanish coast guard harass HMS Talent as she left Gib on the 21st I have to say it is getting silly down there we really need bigger and better armed fast patrol boats based at Gib if the Spanish are going to be so childish

Lease some CB-90s and have the RM man them.

For a moment, I thought you had said RAM THEM!