Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

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Ron5
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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Ron5 »

Seems clear to me that the video is saying it takes 12 seconds to 1st stage ignition from initial trigger press.

Timmymagic
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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Timmymagic »

mr.fred wrote:It states that there is a 12s timer (and a 7.8s one) but it doesn’t indicate what that timer actually does. It could be a safety timer that cuts launch signal power after the launch window or breaks up the darts to reduce the danger area.
Given the other videos out there or the intended mode of function I cannot see any way that there could be a 12s delay between trigger pull and launch.
There is an initial 5 second tracking phase on trigger pull, where the operator tracks the target, that can include the sytem providing super elevation data back to the operator via the firing post. After that the second stage trigger operates and its 0.5 of a second from there to missile launch.

Given the speed of Starstreak and its max range I suspect the 12 seconds is the maximum engagement length from first trigger pull.

Ron5
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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Ron5 »

Timmymagic wrote:Given the speed of Starstreak and its max range I suspect the 12 seconds is the maximum engagement length from first trigger pull.
Except that isn't what the video shows.

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whitelancer
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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by whitelancer »

Not how I interpreted it.
On trigger press batteries come on line gyros spun up and front end cap ejected by pressure build up, what caused the pressure build up? Didn't explain.
0.45 secs after trigger press 1st stage motor ignition and launch.
In truth the video doesn't make it very clear, it gives some interesting details but leaves much out, for instance what are the timers for?
Speculating I would suggest the 12 secs mentioned could be the time taken from activating the launcher to being ready to launch a missile which then proceeds as outlined in the video. Further I would speculate that the launcher can be active but held in a safe mode until a target appears, meaning in effect that on detection a target can be engaged immediately rather than waiting for 12 secs.

Lord Jim
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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Lord Jim »

The key time segment mentioned is the 7.8sec timer that stars after the 1st stage motor ignites. The video fails to state what the timer dies of is for but prior to that is states that the missile starts to be fired less than 0.5sec of the trigger being pulled. Any video you would care to watch of a Starstreak being fired will show how rapid the launch is.

What the overall 12 sec timer is for again is not mentioned and does match the individual segment stated during the video. It therefore must be something beyond the simple launch of the missile, possibly a safety function that engages if the missile is a dud or something goes wrong with the guidance.

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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Ron5 »

(no title)
12 second timer start
TRIGGER PRESS
3 Electrical Pulses sent to Dart Nose Section
Thermal Batteries in Darts Activated
Gyros Fired
Front End Cap Ejected
1st STAGE MOTOR IGNITION
Trigger MUST be held > 0.45 sec
4th Pulse sent to 1st Stage Motor
1st Stage Motor Ignition
7.8 Sec timer starts
Rear blow-off panel ejected
INSTANCE OF MOVE (IOM)
Missile begins to spin
Segment Support Switch opens
Bore Riding Pin closes
TAIL FINS DEPLOY
Tails Fins Deploy
Retaining Screws Fail
1st STAGE MOTORS SEPARATION
1st Stage Motor falls away
1m Lanyard Deployed
2nd STAGE MOTOR IGNITION
Lanyard pulls pin etc.
2nd STAGE MOTOR BURNOUT
2nd Stage Motor burns out
Dart Support Separation System operates
Darts released and armed
BUS
Bus falls away and darts coast to target
I watched the video again and just going on what it says rather than any preconceptions I may have, I still think that its clear. Though a mite ambiguous I admit.

In electronically driven systems, timers are used to control sequencing of events. They expire and something is started or stopped.

In this case, the 12 second timer starts with the trigger press and end with the 1st stage ignition. In other words, the timer triggers the motor ignition, everything is assumed to have completed at that point, gyros spinning and stable etc. But if and only if the trigger was held for more than 0.45 seconds. Not explained is what happens if it is pressed for less time. I suspect nothing is initiated but the video leaves the possibility that all is left set for an immediate 1st stage ignition after a 2nd press i.e gyros are left spinning etc.

As the missile leaves the tube, I don't think any additional timers are needed. All events are initiated mechanically. The tail fins deploy by springs as they are released from the confines of the tube, the retaining screws fail at that point, and later the 1st stage falls away as soon as it stops producing any thrust and yanks the cord to start the 2nd stage. Once again as soon as the second stage stops pushing, the darts are released and armed.

mr.fred
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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by mr.fred »

Ron5 wrote:I watched the video again and just going on what it says rather than any preconceptions I may have, I still think that its clear. Though a mite ambiguous I admit.
There’s two timers.
I don’t see anything that indicates when the timers end.
If we infer that the timer has to complete before the next step can be started then it must also be the case that there is a 7.8s delay between the first stage motor ignition and the rear blow-off panel ejecting, or at least before the missile starts moving. IMHO that seems unlikely.
On top of that, this is a missile intended to travel as fast as possible to engage pop-up targets. A 20s delay in the firing sequence would seem to work counter to that.

Lord Jim
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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Lord Jim »

The first stage ignites after the trigger is held for 0.45 seconds. What the 12 second or 7.8 second timers are for is not covered at all except to say they are started. You can see form the video above how fast the missile is fired once the trigger is engaged. Being laser guided there is no period of waiting for the missile seeker to track the target, that was on of the reasons for using this form of guidance, to enable to system to engage pop up targets, together with the speed of the missile. It is probably the fastest reacting MANPAD out there.

To get the actual answer we need to see the full video and ideally the operating manual paragraphs covering this. One thing is for sure it doesn't take 12 seconds to launch the missile once you engage the trigger. Javelin was faster than that , and that is a missile I have "fired", the training launcher, which was a pain as once the missile left he launcher it became very front heavy and you had to gather things up and put the crosshairs back on the target very quickly. Even harder with Blowpipe where you had to both get eh target in the crosshairs and use the toggle to guide the missile.

jimthelad
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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by jimthelad »

I haven't fired Starstreak but we were part of the trial team which looked at it as a direct fire weapon against IFV'S. Was amazing to watch. The reaction time was especially impressive. The time to fire was less than the MILAN (I would be wary about actually specifying due to opsec) and we simulated rapid emergence enfilade engagement on fleeting targets. The missile was like a bloody laser in it's ability to acquire, launch, and hit targets of opportunity. The main limitation was firing from a standing position and the time it took to clip another round on. A Good MIlLAN team could push 4-5 rounds out a minute if not moving and the targets were head on approach.

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whitelancer
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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by whitelancer »

Lord Jim wrote:Javelin was faster than that , and that is a missile I have "fired", the training launcher, which was a pain as once the missile left he launcher it became very front heavy and you had to gather things up and put the crosshairs back on the target very quickly. Even harder with Blowpipe where you had to both get eh target in the crosshairs and use the toggle to guide the missile.
In the dim and distant past I had a chance to try out a Blowpipe simulator. I think the main problem with all such systems is that you cant keep them on your shoulder for any length of time, you certainly couldn't use the sighting system to search for targets. Instead its a matter of searching for targets with the good old fashioned Mk 1 eyeball hopefully assisted by ADAD, only having detected a target can you get the launcher on your shoulder and endeavour to acquire it, You then need to maintain your aim through launch until impact with the target. Ideally you want to detect the target at a reasonable distance at a reasonable height to give you the time to get prepared. Unfortunately of course targets, except on the range, have a habit of either flying very fast , very low or both appearing suddenly from an unexpected direction and quickly disappearing again, giving little time to engage.
For shoulder launched weapons I believe they really need to be fire and forget, such as stinger.

Lord Jim
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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Lord Jim »

Which is probably why our SF use it.

Starstreak and LMM will still be able to do the job but need to be networked with improved sensors and EO devises as well as other Air Defence systems. But as I mentioned why Starstreak is so fast in both time it takes to launch and reach the target is to reduce the time the firer needs to have the target marked by the control unit and to deal with pop up targets that give little or no warning.

This is why I believe the mention of timers in the video is miss leading and out of context of an actual engagement.

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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Timmymagic »

Timmymagic wrote:And that might be a good sign....if MSI are prepared to invest to create a more, permanent, integrated solution than the previous 7 or 5 missile lash-ups it looks like they may have confidence in orders coming...
Worth noting (and apologies its not Martlet/LMM related) is that the USN appears to have selected the MSI DS-30 mount as its Mk.38 Mod.4 gun system. Basically the RN's DS-30M 30mm Bushmaster mount is going to be on most of the newbuilt USN and USCG fleet in the near future....replacing the 25mm Bushmaster equipped Typhoon derivative Mk.38 Mod 0-3) quite a vote of confidence in the system...tempted to do an MSI Defence thread as they have some interesting systems...

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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Timmymagic »

whitelancer wrote:For shoulder launched weapons I believe they really need to be fire and forget, such as stinger.
Hopefully Thales will, at some point, develop the Imaging Infra Red Seeker. That would allow fire and forget operation. The single stage motor would also give much greater range and speed (but would make it unsuitable for launch from a shoulder or triple mount).

Image

GarethDavies1
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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by GarethDavies1 »

So would the first stage rocket simply eject the missile from its cannister?

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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Timmymagic »

GarethDavies1 wrote:So would the first stage rocket simply eject the missile from its cannister?
Yes, its a kick motor. It's stopped firing by the time the missile exhaust exist the tube, the 2nd stage ignites when the missile is clear of the canister and operator/platform. You can see this clearly in the Wildcat video on the previous page. Starstreak has the same arrangement, except that the kick motor seperates from the rest of the missile once clear.

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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by GarethDavies1 »

The photo of the single stage rocket is interesting as it would give more speed. Has it been tested by Thales or purely a paper concept?

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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by mr.fred »

Why would a single stage motor give more speed?

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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Timmymagic »

GarethDavies1 wrote:The photo of the single stage rocket is interesting as it would give more speed. Has it been tested by Thales or purely a paper concept?
These were options that Thales said could be developed as LMM is modular. All would require funding, some more than others.

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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Timmymagic »

mr.fred wrote:Why would a single stage motor give more speed?
With a kick motor you lose space with the venturi(s) for the main motor having to run through the kick motor, unless its seperated as a seperate stage (like Starstreak, which brings complications and expense). Having one motor avoids failure points, complexity and means the motor can be purely designed to provide thrust for acceleration and sustainment.

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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Ron5 »

mr.fred wrote:
Ron5 wrote:I watched the video again and just going on what it says rather than any preconceptions I may have, I still think that its clear. Though a mite ambiguous I admit.
There’s two timers.
I don’t see anything that indicates when the timers end.
If we infer that the timer has to complete before the next step can be started then it must also be the case that there is a 7.8s delay between the first stage motor ignition and the rear blow-off panel ejecting, or at least before the missile starts moving. IMHO that seems unlikely.
On top of that, this is a missile intended to travel as fast as possible to engage pop-up targets. A 20s delay in the firing sequence would seem to work counter to that.
As I said, interpreting the video doesn't give answers that either match our preconceptions or actual experience.

Perhaps changing seconds to milliseconds on the timers helps :D

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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Whodareswins »

Timmy

I’d certainly be interested in a separate MSI Defence thread if you were still planning to do one?

Many thanks

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Ron5 wrote:Perhaps changing seconds to milliseconds on the timers helps
If you adjust the self-destruct timer on Stinger for the missiles slower speed, and apply the fraction, derived of relative speeds, to multiply the following:
" Should target intercept not occur within 15-19 seconds after launch, a self-destruct circuit initiates warhead detonation. "
then we might be v close to how the longer timer is set, and causing much head scratching here as to the function that it might serve.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Ron5
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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Ron5 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Ron5 wrote:Perhaps changing seconds to milliseconds on the timers helps
If you adjust the self-destruct timer on Stinger for the missiles slower speed, and apply the fraction, derived of relative speeds, to multiply the following:
" Should target intercept not occur within 15-19 seconds after launch, a self-destruct circuit initiates warhead detonation. "
then we might be v close to how the longer timer is set, and causing much head scratching here as to the function that it might serve.
There's no way a self-destruct timer would be initiated before launch. Utter madness.

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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by jimthelad »

Most weapons which have a self destruct enabler in the start sequence. Dependant on guidance (wire vs radio vs SAL/MMW) the range gate is preset or elective. On start up the self destruct powers up from the main power bus and then awaits launch detection (usually an accelerometer with a minimum limit or a simple rotational arming vane). Upon launch, this sets to enabled and the performs the countdown/criteria monitoring until this is met. If there is a command initiation, this is usually active from launch.

Dependant on the weapon this can be detonate at criteria fulfilment or initiate detonation at safety altitude. For example most western ATGM had a max engagement range which when surpassed initiated a climb to height and autodetonation.

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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by mr.fred »

I would expect that any self-destruct timer would either be set after launch or feature an interlock that is disengaged on launch to avoid the embarrassment of the warhead detonating in the launch tube in the event of a misfire.

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