Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

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shark bait
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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by shark bait »

Lord Jim wrote:and whether this was purely a trials fit, a UOR lash up prior to deployment or the full system?
Purely for trials. It looks like there's a door behind the launcher, along with a bunch of other equipment, I doubt that can be considered safe for operational use.
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Old RN
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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Old RN »

I suspect that the real technical challenge is the separation of EO system and the launcher, with the difficulty being the "gathering" of the missile into the laser beam for missile guidance. This is why I doubt the Starstreak HVM with its rapid (and I think unguided) boost to separation of the guided darts at Mach 4 would make such a separation of the EO line of sight launch point possible. Hence tge confused comments in the initial press statement about the slower LMM allowing better SACLOS missile guidance.

jimthelad
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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by jimthelad »

Some if not all of the gear such as boxes and cables was likely to be coaxial testing rig sets. We used something similar for testing ATGM.

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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by BlueD954 »

https://ted.europa.eu/udl?uri=TED:NOTIC ... HTML&src=0

Important

II.1.4)
Short description of the contract or purchase(s):
Storage containers. The Lightweight and Medium Attack (LMAS) Delivery Team, part of the Weapons Operating Centre in DE&S (hereafter referred to as 'the Authority') has a requirement for the manufacture of Bulk Module Storage (BMS) Containers for storage helicopter weapon equipment on board Royal Naval (RN) Ships.

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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Timmymagic »

Interesting pic here...not seen them all lined up before. Hadn't really appreciated that Martlet is actually substantially larger than Starburst, I thought they'd just re-purposed the same missile body. Not sure why they've covered over Javelin's name either...they really need to sort that wallpaper out too...

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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by RunningStrong »

Timmymagic wrote:. Not sure why they've covered over Javelin's name either...they really need to sort that wallpaper out too...
I'm going to guess and say too many questions related to the ATGM.

GarethDavies1
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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by GarethDavies1 »

To me an improved Starburst with some modifications would make a good inner layer defense missile for ships - or even an improved LMM with a larger warhead and a slightly more powerful rocket motor.

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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Ron5 »

Timmymagic wrote:.they really need to sort that wallpaper out too...
Maybe the 3rd picture had something to do with that :D

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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Timmymagic »

GarethDavies1 wrote:To me an improved Starburst with some modifications would make a good inner layer defense missile for ships - or even an improved LMM with a larger warhead and a slightly more powerful rocket motor.
In something like this?
Seastreak CIWS....from 1989, concept started in c1986...35 years ago...

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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by GarethDavies1 »

Maybe maybe not...I was just thinking that are 3 small darts more effective than one missile with a 3 to 4kg warhead....or is it all bullshit and in reality any kind of CIWS is a waste of time.

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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Timmymagic »

GarethDavies1 wrote:Maybe maybe not...I was just thinking that are 3 small darts more effective than one missile with a 3 to 4kg warhead....or is it all bullshit and in reality any kind of CIWS is a waste of time.
Depends on the target. Each Starstreak dart has a bursting charge equivalent to a 40mm Bofors round fused to detonate after penetration. That will take absolutely any missile down.

CIWS are absolutely still a good idea, not just for missile defence but for defence against FAC, UAS and targets in close (close to land for example where terrain can mask a threat). But also the number of high supersonic (let alone hypersonic) missiles actually in service worldwide is miniscule compared to the numbers of subsonic missiles out there...the way people talk you'd assume they'd all been retired...in reality they'll still be the principal threat for a fair few years yet.

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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Lord Jim »

Adding Starstreak/LMM launch tubes to 30mm mounts should be an easy win for the RN and RFA, adding to the air defence and close anti surface capabilities of numerous ships.

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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by GarethDavies1 »

Shame the MOD/RN doesn't see it that easy.

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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by KiwiMuzz »

Lord Jim wrote:Adding Starstreak/LMM launch tubes to 30mm mounts should be an easy win for the RN and RFA, adding to the air defence and close anti surface capabilities of numerous ships.
Not to mention the 40mm and/or 57mm mounts on the Type 31s... :)

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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Timmymagic »

KiwiMuzz wrote:Not to mention the 40mm and/or 57mm mounts on the Type 31s...
Probably cheaper, and far easier, to add the standalone 4 round Martlet launcher recently seen, than hang it on the side of a closed mount of a larger gun.

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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Repulse »

It is interesting that the Seahawk Sigma platform has dropped from 5 to 4 missiles, there must be a reason for it? Perhaps the trials on HMS Sutherland a couple of years ago highlighted an issue?

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RichardIC
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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by RichardIC »

Repulse wrote:Perhaps the trials on HMS Sutherland a couple of years ago highlighted an issue?
Like this could do considerable damage to your ship?

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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Repulse »

RichardIC wrote:
Repulse wrote:Perhaps the trials on HMS Sutherland a couple of years ago highlighted an issue?
Like this could do considerable damage to your ship?

Image
Would agree with that - at best a very limit arc of fire. What I'm not clear on is why go from five to four? The rocket exhaust would still strip the paint (and melt a new window).
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by mr.fred »

That picture looks dramatic, but doesn’t indicate how long that fire trail lasts. It’s the duration that will determine how much energy is transferred and thus how much damage is done.

RunningStrong
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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by RunningStrong »

Repulse wrote:It is interesting that the Seahawk Sigma platform has dropped from 5 to 4 missiles, there must be a reason for it? Perhaps the trials on HMS Sutherland a couple of years ago highlighted an issue?

Image
I expect it's a performance issue. That's a fair bit of imbalance weight to be hanging off a gun system that's supposed to be quite rapid moving.

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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Timmymagic »

Repulse wrote:It is interesting that the Seahawk Sigma platform has dropped from 5 to 4 missiles, there must be a reason for it? Perhaps the trials on HMS Sutherland a couple of years ago highlighted an issue?
It was originally 7 missiles....

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The 7 missile set up was the same as was originally proposed for Wildcat.

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I think that was changed due to the new Wildcat Weapons Wing, and potential ground clearance issues of the bottom 2 canisters when a heavy landing occured, particularly aboard ship. The 5 missile canister seen in the trials aboard HMS Sutherland was borrowed from that programme. I suspect the reason for the switch to 4 missiles is far more prosaic, it looks like a more durable, 'sea ready' setup rather than the lighter, air focused 5 missile container used in the trials.

And that might be a good sign....if MSI are prepared to invest to create a more, permanent, integrated solution than the previous 7 or 5 missile lash-ups it looks like they may have confidence in orders coming...

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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Timmymagic »

mr.fred wrote:That picture looks dramatic, but doesn’t indicate how long that fire trail lasts. It’s the duration that will determine how much energy is transferred and thus how much damage is done.
It's a kick motor so its measured in milliseconds. Main motor ignition is c15 metres from the firing platform.

Even in this slowed down footage its over in an incredibly short space of time..you can see the main motor ignition when the missile has cleared the Wildcat.


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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

MISTARL missile is used worldwide. The initial stage motor backdraft is common, and they are all "properly handled".

- SADRAL 6-missile launcher
- TETRAL 4-missile launcher
- Simbad/Simbad-RC 2-missile launcher

So the initial stage motor backdraft is clearly an issue which can be easily handled.

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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Timmymagic »

donald_of_tokyo wrote:MISTARL missile is used worldwide. The initial stage motor backdraft is common, and they are all "properly handled".

- SADRAL 6-missile launcher
- TETRAL 4-missile launcher
- Simbad/Simbad-RC 2-missile launcher

So the initial stage motor backdraft is clearly an issue which can be easily handled.
That will be the case for Mistral or Martlet(LMM). If we ever want to use Starstreak on the mount though (which may be dependent on whether the missile can be 'gathered' into the remote E/O sight in good time) we might need to do a bit more work. Starstreak firing is a lot more energetic than other MANPADS, particularly the blast and shock behind the firing post.

The video below really illustrates what a monster of a missile Starstreak is in comparison with other MANPADS (which are no slouch themselves, but look positively pedestrian in comparison..).



You can contrast it with LMM..



18 successful shots, then Army trials...plus Navy trials on Martlet and ASCG, made up of a whole lot more firings (particularly the Wildcat shots)....you have to wonder how many of the original 1,000 missiles ordered we actually have left...

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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by mr.fred »

Timmymagic wrote:Starstreak firing is a lot more energetic than other MANPADS, particularly the blast and shock behind the firing post.
Doesn’t look that bad to me.

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