Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

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jimthelad
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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by jimthelad »

Milan had a warhead weight of 2.7kg, single stage HEAT with a beryllium copper liner. It was more effective than other heavier warheads on systems such as AT-4 spigot or Dragon due to it's wider face and tapered distal end causing a more focused plasma jet. Great bit of kit, heavy to lug around and an annoying minimum engagement range but awesomely accurate and would trash anything.

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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by RetroSicotte »

PapaGolf wrote:Comparing it to other AT missiles that are man guided and with a fairly flat trajectory, warhead weight is (from wiki):
LMM - 3kg
Tow - 4-6kg
Milan - not stated but total missile weight is 16.4KG
AT-5 Spandrel - 2.7kg
AT-14 Spriggan - 4.6kg - 10kg depending on version

Javelin has an 8KG warhead.


LMM might not be a tank killer but would be useful against lightly armoured vehicles, bunkers and structures.
Well, the AT-5 manages around 600mm RHAe penetration. It won't penetrate an MBTs front (most modern ones have 800-1000+ RHAe against CE projectiles) but that will hurt most of anything else.

Not bad for a little one.

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RichardIC
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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by RichardIC »



Tested on board HMS Sutherland. If you go to @hthjones there's a thread with more info.


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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by RetroSicotte »

Fantastic work. Could hopefully see a speedy introduction if it all goes smoothly.

What oddly fitting timing given recent events.

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Looks like it is directly "re-using" the 5 missile Wildcat's launcher, and not newly designed 7 LMM launcher?

Good move. 5 and 7 has only a little difference. Zero vs 5 differs infinitely. :D

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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Timmymagic »

donald_of_tokyo wrote:Looks like it is directly "re-using" the 5 missile Wildcat's launcher, and not newly designed 7 LMM launcher?
Looks like the major change to the tubes is that the cover of the missile no longer 'pops' off when the gas builds up, instead being retained. Good sense on a aerial platform. This will also be very useful on the DS30M installation on the QE Class as it means no FOD.

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SKB
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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by SKB »


(Thales) 3rd July 2019
Thales proves its Lightweight Multirole Missile's precision strike capability in protecting vital assets and service crew at sea by defeating naval threats at recent firings trials.
Thales LMM brochure (PDF) : https://t.co/qDKiVHNt8z

cyrilranch
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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by cyrilranch »

SKB wrote:
(Thales) 3rd July 2019
Thales proves its Lightweight Multirole Missile's precision strike capability in protecting vital assets and service crew at sea by defeating
IMG_20190716_172211.jpg
naval threats at recent firings trials.
Thales LMM brochure (PDF) : https://t.co/qDKiVHNt8z
Fitted to Hms Sutherland and firing tests.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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Lord Jim
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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Lord Jim »

Should become a standard fit on all RN vessels. It is an elegant solution to dealing with small boats and even UAVs and very cost effective. Now we need to just fit the RFA with a couple of these mounts as well.

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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Caribbean »

Lord Jim wrote:Should become a standard fit on all RN vessels. It is an elegant solution to dealing with small boats and even UAVs and very cost effective. Now we need to just fit the RFA with a couple of these mounts as well.
And perhaps, the B2 Rivers, if they are to have a genuinely world-wide role - it seems like a logical upgrade to all existing 30mm mounts. Now if we can also develop a point-defence variant.... :D
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by S M H »

Caribbean wrote:And perhaps, the B2 Rivers, if they are to have a genuinely world-wide role - it seems like a logical upgrade to all existing 30mm mounts. Now if we can also develop a point-defence variant....
Having looked round the amazon's when stored in Devonshire dock Barrow in Furness, The fitting of two mountings aft of the bridge would provide a good upgrade as the firing arks looked good. A cheap upgrade if they get used on low risk constabulary duties.

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RichardIC
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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by RichardIC »

So if I'm reading this correctly the important bit isn't the gun - because the missile launcher is just a parasitic attachment to the mount - but the siting of the laser transmitter.

Presumably this has been located in the EOR that's used to control the gun from a console in the ops room. So will Marlet be controlled from a the same console or has it required two addition consoles to be fitted?

And this, again presumably, means Martlet isn't compatible with the older manually-aimed 30mm mounts that are still fitted to Type 45s, MCMVs, pre-Tide RFAs etc, but only with the newer Bushmaster mounts.

I think.

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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by RetroSicotte »

Honestly was news to me that the ones on the Darings were manual. I've even been on board one and didn't notice!

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RichardIC
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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by RichardIC »

RetroSicotte wrote:Honestly was news to me that the ones on the Darings were manual. I've even been on board one and didn't notice!
TBH not sure myself and the question seems to been mulled over on this board before. There are EORs on each beam above the bridge so maybe it is an option on the 45s, although there would be less need for Marlet with them being Phalanxed-up.

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Old RN
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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Old RN »

Will QE get this fitted to her 4 x 30mm mountings?

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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by RetroSicotte »

Old RN wrote:Will QE get this fitted to her 4 x 30mm mountings?
Lower to zero priority, I'd say. If ANYTHING of the sort of nature this thing hits (FICs etc) gets that close to QE, then she's in the wrong place. The Autocannons are fine as they are for Counter-SBIED (is that a term?) ala USS Cole.

She's no-where near the frontlines for that. QE should be focused only on harbour guard and anti-missile only, at least in terms of priority to mounting them on other ships.

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Old RN
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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Old RN »

RetroSicotte wrote:
Old RN wrote:Will QE get this fitted to her 4 x 30mm mountings?
Lower to zero priority, I'd say. If ANYTHING of the sort of nature this thing hits (FICs etc) gets that close to QE, then she's in the wrong place. The Autocannons are fine as they are for Counter-SBIED (is that a term?) ala USS Cole.

She's no-where near the frontlines for that. QE should be focused only on harbour guard and anti-missile only, at least in terms of priority to mounting them on other ships.
But this mounting/guidance also takes the Starstreak HVM which could be a usefull SAM for them, given they have little else!

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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by jimthelad »

T45 has an optionally manned turret as do the T23 and all other except the B2 rivers. The pannier sits in place of the seat and manual fire controls. It was the loss of this that caused the reticence in the RN. You can see this in the documentary about HMS Duncan in the Black Sea. I wouldn't think there would be much enthusiasm to man the guns in a CBRN environment or if there a bits of metal pining around, so they have dropped the manned option I believe.

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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by RetroSicotte »

Old RN wrote:But this mounting/guidance also takes the Starstreak HVM which could be a usefull SAM for them, given they have little else!
Firing at what? Starstreak is a manual operation SACLOS. It doesn't shoot down missiles.

In what possible world will there be something in the air that is not a missile within 8km of an aircraft carrier that has not already been turned away or engaged by an F-35 or an escort? It's a wholly unnecessary expense that if you're going to expend on QE, would be better used for something else that actually has a missile engagement potential.

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Old RN
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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Old RN »

RetroSicotte wrote:
Old RN wrote:But this mounting/guidance also takes the Starstreak HVM which could be a usefull SAM for them, given they have little else!
Firing at what? Starstreak is a manual operation SACLOS. It doesn't shoot down missiles.

In what possible world will there be something in the air that is not a missile within 8km of an aircraft carrier that has not already been turned away or engaged by an F-35 or an escort? It's a wholly unnecessary expense that if you're going to expend on QE, would be better used for something else that actually has a missile engagement potential.
Starstreak HVM is a laser beam rider and is controlled by the ships EO units. In that sense it is not far from the Sea Wolf in terms of range and guidance capability.

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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by RetroSicotte »

Old RN wrote:Starstreak HVM is a laser beam rider and is controlled by the ships EO units. In that sense it is not far from the Sea Wolf in terms of range and guidance capability.
And yet would require an enormous amount of investment, software, and integration costs to redesign it into being at best an 'eh' thing for anti-missile work. Especially as Starstreak has no proximity fuse. Excels at its intended targets, but not in this case. It's a long way for a shortcut with very little application on that ship.

If you want missile defence on the QE, buy proper missile defence. Not waste money on things that aren't supposed to be doing that.

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Lord Jim
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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Lord Jim »

From looking at the manual, the remote weapon station equipped with LMM would be controlled by their own EO turrets to which it would probably be easier to integrate the gun mounts they are attached to rather than trying to integrate LMM into the ships existing EO/gunnery systems. Does anyone have the actual date on how the installation of the LMM was carried out on the T-23 and whether this was purely a trials fit, a UOR lash up prior to deployment or the full system? However as both LMM and Starstreak are laser bean riders, once the LMM is actually fully adopted, besides a software patch there would be little difficulty in using Starstreak from the same launcher I fit was decides there was a need to do so, in my opinion.

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Old RN
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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Old RN »

Did the fit on HMS Sutherland use the existing, fitted, EO system that the 30mm normally uses or was it an extra EO installation?

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RichardIC
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Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by RichardIC »

Old RN wrote:Did the fit on HMS Sutherland use the existing, fitted, EO system that the 30mm normally uses or was it an extra EO installation?
Exactly the same question I asked and don't know the answer.

But these "fit it to all 30mm" demands are missing the point that the gun is not the issue - it's just provides a convenient mount - it's the sighting, which is off mount.

You may as well bolt a bookcase to a 30mm mount that's manually sighted. Jimthelad says T45s have EO guidance for their 30mms. River B2s definately do. Not sure about MCMVs - think they're manual only.

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