FV430 Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

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RunningStrong
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Re: FV430 Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by RunningStrong »

Tempest414 wrote:With Bulldog now staying until 2030 should we look to upgrade them with RWS systems with 12.7 HMG and 40mm GMG

also could we do a limited upgrade of Warrior by removing the turrets and fitting RWS with 30mm. Then as Warrior goes out of service these RWS mount could be fitted to other vehicles
Depends what you expect Bulldog to be doing. I really don't expect it to be getting into the fight.

Remove the turret from warrior and you've got to completely reconfigure the inside to allow for the commander and gunner (assuming they're operating the RWS).

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Re: FV430 Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by Tempest414 »

RunningStrong wrote:Depends what you expect Bulldog to be doing. I really don't expect it to be getting into the fight.
For me its about being able to offer some support as we know some of Bulldogs were fitted with RWS's in there 2006/7 refit and the troops liked them at the time plus there looks like there will little to support the Bulldogs
RunningStrong wrote:Remove the turret from warrior and you've got to completely reconfigure the inside to allow for the commander and gunner (assuming they're operating the RWS).
If this is the case then I would not bother

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Re: FV430 Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by RunningStrong »

Tempest414 wrote:
RunningStrong wrote:Depends what you expect Bulldog to be doing. I really don't expect it to be getting into the fight.
For me its about being able to offer some support as we know some of Bulldogs were fitted with RWS's in there 2006/7 refit and the troops liked them at the time plus there looks like there will little to support the Bulldogs
But that was pre-AJAX/Ares and pre-Boxer days. I'll be really worried if we're still fronting Bulldogs even in 2025.

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Re: FV430 Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by Tempest414 »

RunningStrong wrote:I'll be really worried if we're still fronting Bulldogs even in 2025.
The way this lot are going plus the speed of the current programs I would not be shocked if bulldog was still holding the line in 2040
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Re: FV430 Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Tempest414 wrote:why not even if its every one in three giving some the ability to shoot on the move
I agree that at platoon level there should be immediate means for 'suppression' to hand.
And over 500 Bulldogs were mechanically renewed (did they all get the Israeli armour package, too?); not all can have been in heavy use since
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Re: FV430 Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by Lord Jim »

Probably means the FV432m will remain in service for longer than expected providing the integral indirect fire support within the Mechanised Infantry Battalions, regardless that they will have trouble keeping up. I suppose eventually we will get a Boxer Mortar platform but I can see it not reaching IOC until after 2030, let alone FOC.

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Re: FV430 Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

The future of Armoured Infantry is interesting, the Army (and its chief at the RUSI land warfare conference) just keep saying @boxer is not a like for like replacement for Warrior
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
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Re: FV430 Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by Lord Jim »

Probably because saying that means they will be seen to have cocked up the WCSP and had to cancel it and rely on Boxer instead. But this way they can say Warrior didn't fit the Army's future vision for war fighting and was therefore cancelled, with Boxer becoming the Army's main Infantry carrier but not an IFV, but something better than and APC also.

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Re: FV430 Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Lord Jim wrote:therefore cancelled, with Boxer becoming the Army's main Infantry carrier but not an IFV
With MBTs few in number and no autocannons in support, to help with suppressing opposing infantry further out than MGs reach
... means giving ATGW teams a lot of opportunities

If Ajax pulls thru, then the cannons will be fielded, but using a pricey recce wagon for the task would seem wasteful (esp. as Ch3s will have sensors pretty much on par with Ajax's)
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Re: FV430 Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by Lord Jim »

Maybe some unmanned wing men equipped with autocannon and precision rockets would do the job. Prototypes of such tracked UGVs are already undergoing trial in the US with the US Army. Having these operating with both the Armour and Infantry in the Heavy and Light BCT, and being modular regarding their armament and sensor fit would solve a lot to the British Army's capability gaps and greatly increase the fire power of all formations including Airmobile if it can fit in and be carried by a Chinook.

Maybe that is where the Army is heading post 2030?

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Re: FV430 Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by sol »

Bulldog will be replaced by a yet to be determined platform with procurement activity starting in 2025

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/bulldog ... etermined/

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Re: FV430 Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by mr.fred »

Surely at this point the answer is Boxer or the larger MRVP?

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Re: FV430 Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by sol »

mr.fred wrote: 07 Jan 2022, 12:45 Surely at this point the answer is Boxer or the larger MRVP?
Or both. I guess Command, Mortar and Ambulance versions in Mechanised Battalions and SPA regiments could be covered by Boxer and in other units with MRVPs. If I am not wrong, Package 2 of MRVP could cover many of those roles that Bulldog is currently doing. But Army could also go with completely different solution, for example some 6x6 APC.

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Re: FV430 Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by Tempest414 »

We really need to get a grip and make the Mk-3's fit for a task by fitting 200 of them with a RWS fitted with 12.7mm , 30mm and 40mm GMG next order 1600 Bushmaster's to replace the hole UOR fleet and half the bulldogs this would be followed by the other half of the bulldogs being replaced by Boxer

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Re: FV430 Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by mr.fred »

sol wrote: 07 Jan 2022, 15:14 But Army could also go with completely different solution, for example some 6x6 APC.
They could, but they shouldn’t be allowed to.

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Re: FV430 Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by Lord Jim »

Additional Boxers for units that are part of or supporting the Recce Deep Strike and Heavy BCTs and as stated MRV(P) Phase 2 or even a modified legacy protected vehicle like the Mastiff or Coyote to do the same job in the Light BCTs as well as the Ranger Regiment and parts of 16 Air Assault BCT. Even a joint buy with the Royal Marines who are looking to replace their old Bv206S All Terrain Support Vehicles, with the front runner being the latest versions of the Viking, which is more flexible as well as being tied into the Digital Backbone the Army is developing. If fact this would be a very good choice for some lighter units as it can be carried underslung a Chinook and is proven in a multitude of terrain very similar to where the Army seems to want to be.

It should be a no brainer but the statement "Yet to be determined", to me means that it is on the to do list but isn't funded or part of the existing Equipment Plan.

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Re: FV430 Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by sol »

Lord Jim wrote: 07 Jan 2022, 21:48 ... modified legacy protected vehicle like the Mastiff or Coyote to do the same job in the Light BCTs
Coyote is totally unsuitable for roles that Bulldog is currently providing and Mastiff is already aging platform so why spend money on modifying them when, by the time the last FV430 will be out of service, themself would be ready to be replaced. Just buy new vehicles. If MRV-P Package 2 is still a thing just include these roles too. Vehicles like Thales Bushmaster, Mowag Eagle 6x6 or some other similar vehicles could be option to replace all current MRAP vehicles in service and fill Bulldog roles for "ligher" elements of Army. Boxer could probably do the same thing for "heavy" units, only question is if it is too expansive to be put in those roles and some cheaper vehicle could be found instead.

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Re: FV430 Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by Lord Jim »

The key word in the quote you highlighted is "Light". With the creation of the Light BCTs we are going to need vehicles to carry out roles that are currently carried out by the FV430 series in the existing Armoured Infantry Brigades, so it is far from a match a same set of requirements. The Coyote with is large flatbed can easily be modified to carry out a number of specialist roles. As for the Mastiff, the totally8 overhauled version built form existing vehicles that has been dispatched to Mali is a game changer and as far as capability is concerned could almost be seen as a totally new vehicle. Yes both the Coyote and Mastiff were put through some hard use in Afghanistan, but it is still far cheaper to overhaul these, replacing the worn out components, than it is to buy a totally new platform. What I was suggesting when mentioning these two platforms, was if funding was tight an/or the MRV(P) was delayed, there could be a role for the Coyote and Mastiff. If money were not an issue there are still many other requirements that have a higher priority then the MRV(P). I agree something like the Bushmaster is ideal for the Light BCTs but whereas we can cobble together equipment to equip the Light BCTs from existing platform and have them be viable, this is not the case with the Heavy BCTs who as currently planned are simply lacking too many essential capabilities to be viable in any peer level confrontation. This becomes even more so if Ajax fails to deliver.

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Re: FV430 Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by RunningStrong »

Lord Jim wrote: 08 Jan 2022, 23:25 The Coyote with is large flatbed can easily be modified to carry out a number of specialist roles.
I just can't see a Coyote with a Box on the back for Command Post and Ambulance.

Mortar carrier, yes sure, that would be great.

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Re: FV430 Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by Lord Jim »

Command Post and Ambulance I see an improved and modified Mastiff in the role. As for the Coyote, yes Mortar is one role I thought of, but what about a Extractor Mk2 or a UAV launcher/carrier. It could be an artillery tractor ofr wither a 105mm Light Gun, carrying its initial ammunition supply, or my preference a towed 120mm Mortar with its ammunition. You could also mount a three round HVM/LMM manual launcher as well as reloads and the IRST(forgotten its actual name) to provide SHORAD. I just think it would provide far more than just being the Logistics vehicle it was designed as.

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Re: FV430 Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by sol »

Lord Jim wrote: 08 Jan 2022, 23:25 The Coyote with is large flatbed can easily be modified to carry out a number of specialist roles.
Coyote is completely open and for roles like command or ambulance would require major restructure of vehicle. It would require enclosing both driver and rear areas and adding couple of tons of armour would probably impact performance of the whole vehicle. And while it could be used as mortar platform, it would still leave whole crew exposed to element whole time.

Also I am not sure how many spare Coyotes do you think are out there? By "UK Armed Forces Equipment and Formations 2021" report, published in the September last year, there are 72 Coyotes in the Army arsenal. And these are used by three recce regiments equipped with Jackals. Now I don't know how many Coyotes are used per regiment, but from squadron orbat I could find, there is 4 Coyotes per squadron for logistic. So at least 36 are used by 9 regular squadrons. Also not sure if any other formations are using it but in any case very few would be available for any other roles.
Lord Jim wrote: 08 Jan 2022, 23:25 As for the Mastiff, the totally overhauled version built form existing vehicles that has been dispatched to Mali is a game changer and as far as capability is concerned could almost be seen as a totally new vehicle.
It does not make them new, it just fixing some issues that these vehicles have with mobility. It does not providing them with a new chassis or replacing everything on them. Even with those modification they are still aging platform which would probably require replacement over the next decade. So why spend more money to fit them for new roles when they would be replaced with something else soon after that. If Army can not afford anything better or new then sure but it would still be just prolonging inevitable. Just like they did with CR2 and Warrior and many other platforms. It would be just waste of money.

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Re: FV430 Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by Lord Jim »

When the Mastiff goes through the upgrade programme they replace everything that is worn out. They select the best candidates before starting any work and the vehicle comes out like an aircraft does after a major overhaul. How do you think we have kept our fleet of 1960s FV430s running for over sixty years.

As for the Coyotes, yes I know they are limited in number, but if we are cobbling together at least one light BCT with existing platforms and waiting to motorise the second at a later date with whatever results form the MRV(P) programme, their use will not be confined to the single light Recce Regiment in the first Light BCT. All the units of this formation are going to initally be fair ad hoc until the Army works out what works best, and it needs to get the most out of what platforms it has. I would also suggest that a number of Coyotes will be assigned to the Ranger Regiment as well. BCTs are supposed to be much more self sufficient than existing Brigades and individual units will need specialist platforms to make them balanced. We could even see some of the Royal Marines Vikings transferred to the Army in exchange for a number of light wheeled vehicles like the Foxhound, replacing the Land Rovers they use at present.

One thing the Army has always been good at is making the best out of a bad situation, especially when it comes to the availability of kit and fond ways to get things done.

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Re: FV430 Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by sol »

Lord Jim wrote: 09 Jan 2022, 09:47 When the Mastiff goes through the upgrade programme they replace everything that is worn out. They select the best candidates before starting any work and the vehicle comes out like an aircraft does after a major overhaul. How do you think we have kept our fleet of 1960s FV430s running for over sixty years.
Well in that case why not just upgrade FV430 and you will have a "new" vehicle again. And as far as I know, upgrade is most about mobility improvements, not total overhaul of the vehicle.
These enhancements include independent suspension systems incorporating Ride Height Control, along with upgraded driveline, steering and braking systems, central tyre inflation systems and increased diametre tyres.
And it definitely is not providing it with a new chassis, which might not be worn yet but it is far from being like new.
Lord Jim wrote: 09 Jan 2022, 09:47 As for the Coyotes, yes I know they are limited in number, but if we are cobbling together at least one light BCT with existing platforms and waiting to motorise the second at a later date with whatever results form the MRV(P) programme, their use will not be confined to the single light Recce Regiment in the first Light BCT.
Sorry but I don't get your point here. Again, Coyote already have its role and number of them are already actively used by units. It does not matter what else you can use them if there is no spare vehicles available for that. If you give it a different role, what vehicle should them do their original role instead?
Lord Jim wrote: 09 Jan 2022, 09:47 I would also suggest that a number of Coyotes will be assigned to the Ranger Regiment as well.
Does Rangers need Coyote? Is there enough available Coyote for Rangers? What is Ranger battalion organisation and role in first place?

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Re: FV430 Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by Lord Jim »

There are eventually going to be Boxers available to replace the FV430 series in the two Armoured Regiments as well as equipping the four Mechanised Infantry Battalions. Supporting units like Signals and Engineers will either also use Boxer or another Wheeled protected vehicle like an upgraded Mastiff or the result of the MRV(P) programme. Some units may instead use the specialised versions of Ajax instead of Boxers as we are ordering far more of these than are required by the Recce Regiments. Whatever happens the FV430 series is finally on the way out to be replaced by far more up to date and capable AFVs.

Regarding the Mastiff, the chassis will last decades, like that of the FV430 series has, as long as a they are properly serviced and maintained. The overhaul of the small number that are in Mali replaced those part that had to be as well as improve it mobility. Their main role will probably be in the first Light BCT, the FV430 series are not suitable this formation.

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Re: FV430 Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by Dahedd »

Fantastic opportunity to be a bit sneaky. Order CV90 (as they should always have done then do a swap) That way they get Boxer & CV90.

Or I guess more Boxer & streamline the whole fleet. Do they do a shorter wheelbase 6x6 or are they all 8 wheelers?


Edit.. number 2. How's about using the Viking or the Warthog to replace them Bulldog?

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