CRV(T) Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

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RunningStrong
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Re: CRV(T) Armoured Vehicle Variants (Army)

Post by RunningStrong »

marktigger wrote:its a shame the lessons of CVRT were forgoten scout vehicles need to have a small foot print. could we see Ajax functioning in the falklands or in Belize?
Army vehicles need to protect their occupants, that's the lesson learnt from the last 15 years. With the proliferation of RPGs and now ATGM in even the most rag-tag mob.

With that comes size. AJAX v CVR (T) weight is comparable to Snatch v Foxhound and the such.

CVR (T) lacked protection and space for modern systems. That's not to say I would scrap Scimtar 2, it certainly has it's place on the battlefield.

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Re: CRV(T) Armoured Vehicle Variants (Army)

Post by marktigger »

yes i remember the discussions about fitting bowman to cvrt

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: CRV(T) Armoured Vehicle Variants (Army)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

RunningStrong wrote:That's not to say I would scrap Scimtar 2, it certainly has it's place on the battlefield.
Anyone know who is going to operate them? Or will the specialist versions be sprinkled all over the place? I guess the mix of the recce/ fire support vs other versions within the 50-60 total never became clear?
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SKB
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Re: CRV(T) Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Post by SKB »


(Matsimus) 15th June 2018

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: CRV(T) Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
RunningStrong wrote:That's not to say I would scrap Scimtar 2, it certainly has it's place on the battlefield.
Anyone know who is going to operate them? Or will the specialist versions be sprinkled all over the place? I guess the mix of the recce/ fire support vs other versions within the 50-60 total never became clear?
Has this become any clearer since (the above quote from) 2016? BAE literature says
"Capability Enhancement also involves a number of upgrades to the vehicle’s protection, taking it to an intermediate level. These include: – Ceramic ballistic armour: for KE threats"
AND
"The project has seen the next generation of CVR(T) variants – Scimitar Mk2, Spartan Mk2, Sultan Mk2, Samaritan Mk2 and Samson Mk2 – enter service in Afghanistan in 2011."

My two main points of interest:
Samaritan in all-tracked units; did it also get the KE protection enhancements?

Scimitar; where are they, as they could be got to places where no other protected fire support AFVs can be made available (fast enough, e.g. underslung)

Perhaps the 50-60 I quoted at the time related to Scimitar2 only (there were export hopes for that variant) as a total of appr. hundred across all variants has also been mentioned
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: CRV(T) Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Post by bobp »

Some CVRT were sold in 2015 to Latvia, I don't know how many or what versions.

Lord Jim
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Re: CRV(T) Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Post by Lord Jim »

I believe they were the non-turreted versions.

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Re: CRV(T) Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Post by Caribbean »

bobp wrote:Some CVRT were sold in 2015 to Latvia, I don't know how many or what versions.
We sold 123 vehicles in 2014, so probably delivered in 2015. Five variants including turreted versions (according to Wiki)

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/latv ... t-vehicles
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Lord Jim
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Re: CRV(T) Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Post by Lord Jim »

Well if you look at the roles mentioned in the press release none are related to the Scimitar, but instead are covered by the Spartan, Sampson, Sultan and Samaritan. I cannot see why they would want to introduce the 30mm Rarden to their inventory, so as always I will take Wiki with a pinch of salt.

RunningStrong
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Re: CRV(T) Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Post by RunningStrong »

Lord Jim wrote:Well if you look at the roles mentioned in the press release none are related to the Scimitar, but instead are covered by the Spartan, Sampson, Sultan and Samaritan. I cannot see why they would want to introduce the 30mm Rarden to their inventory, so as always I will take Wiki with a pinch of salt.
Video?


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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: CRV(T) Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Towards the end, the non-turreted version appearing seems have a launcher arm (with nothing attached)
- I wonder for what for? Latvia is a Spike user, and they have stated that the missiles will be both for AFVs and for dismounted troops. Which AFVs has not been stated (though they had two ex-Soviet recce wagons and some Humvees (an AFV??) prior to the CVR(T) purchase... quite a steal that was : 123, refurbed, for e 48 mln
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: CRV(T) Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Post by RetroSicotte »

It is indeed for Spike, yeah.

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Re: CRV(T) Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Post by Lord Jim »

Interesting, I suppose when you r forces are so small, adopting a few new vehicles and a new weapon system don't have a major impact, thanks for the video. Watching all the way through it looks like Latvia as dumped the majority of its soviet era equipment, They seem to have adopted the FN MAG/M240 as well as the M2 Browning. Which of the Baltics bought a number of Boxer IFVs?

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: CRV(T) Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Lord Jim wrote: adopting a few new vehicles and a new weapon system don't have a major impact
They got a whole family and loadsa compatible spares
- would not be surprised if they also got an option to buy our whole Rarden rounds stock... in a couple of years

Spike they already had; whether the launcher arm was part of UK refit or not? Seems to go with good optics, either way
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: CRV(T) Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Post by jimthelad »

It would be good to keep a few Scimitar 2 for the Air Assault Bgde. I dont know if we have Lapes still but they we great to have along when I was in.

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Re: CRV(T) Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Post by mr.fred »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Lord Jim wrote: adopting a few new vehicles and a new weapon system don't have a major impact
They got a whole family and loadsa compatible spares
- would not be surprised if they also got an option to buy our whole Rarden rounds stock... in a couple of years

Spike they already had; whether the launcher arm was part of UK refit or not? Seems to go with good optics, either way
What are you guys talking about when you say ‘launcher arm’.
I see a tripod on the back of two of the Spartans, one with a missile and one without, but that’s just a standard tripod.
There’s a mechanism alongside the Commander’s cupola, but that’s a machine gun mount.
Image
Or perhaps an arm rest.

RunningStrong
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Re: CRV(T) Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Post by RunningStrong »

It wasn't hard to Google that CVRT would have Spike.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source= ... 0569879076

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Re: CRV(T) Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Post by Lord Jim »

mr.fred wrote:
ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Lord Jim wrote: adopting a few new vehicles and a new weapon system don't have a major impact
They got a whole family and loadsa compatible spares
- would not be surprised if they also got an option to buy our whole Rarden rounds stock... in a couple of years

Spike they already had; whether the launcher arm was part of UK refit or not? Seems to go with good optics, either way
What are you guys talking about when you say ‘launcher arm’.
I see a tripod on the back of two of the Spartans, one with a missile and one without, but that’s just a standard tripod.
There’s a mechanism alongside the Commander’s cupola, but that’s a machine gun mount.
Image
Or perhaps an arm rest.
Closely looking at the video you are right, that is the mount for the MAG, though there is nothing stopping the Latvians from mounting Spike either on a simple launcher or something like we did with the MCT back in the day.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: CRV(T) Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

This is of more than passing interest to us as well. The emerging Latvian mech bde and the existing Lithuanian one will be under "the Danish Division" - aptly named as they only have one bde, but that one has quite a bit of fighting power
- our DefSec has talked about increasing integration with the Danish army, though he wasn't specific about the context (this mentioned division vs. EFP in Estonia?)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: CRV(T) Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Post by Tom8 »

Is there any plans to retain the Mk2 scimitars after the introduction of Ajax?

While these are probably not suitable for use in the armoured/strike brigades, I would have thought they fit nicely with 16 air assault and 3 commando. I imagine they have similar mobility abilities to the RMs Viking vehicles and would perform well in Norway.

I fully understand that they have low protection levels compared to more modern armoured vehicles, but if there was a serious risk to the vehicles on a deployment, we should probably not be deploying only light forces there any way.

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Re: CRV(T) Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Post by Tempest414 »

RetroSicotte wrote:CVRT Upgraded with Ukrainian turret for Jordon displayed at SOFEX 2016

Image

http://www.armyrecognition.com/sofex_20 ... 05165.html
The "KASTET" combat module was designed to offer a modern weapon systems which can be fitted on existing light and medium weight armoured vehicle. The "KASTET" turret has a total weight of 1,500 kg.

The combat module "KASTET" is fitted with a new fire control system using multi-channel optical and TV sighting complex.
The "KASTET" turret is armed with ZTM-1 30mm automatic cannon which can fire a full range of ammunition as APT and APIT at a maximum range of 2,000 m. Second armament includes one 30 automatic grenade launcher KBA 117 and one KT 7.62mm machine gun.

On the right side of the turret, there is two launchers for "Barrier" ATGM (Anti-Tank Guided Missile). The missile is able to destroy armored targets at distances from 100 to 5,000 meters.
So an 8-ton vehicle can throw a couple ATGMs on, but somehow we couldn't find them for a 42 ton Ajax or 30 ton Warrior...hmmm...

Really shows the potential of the CVRT still. Gotta wonder if a CT40 could fit on there and what that might find in the big market out there, given CVRTs are still in use. Allegedly the ones to Latvia will also have ATGMs added beside the 30mm RARDEN.
this was on page one of this thread

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: CRV(T) Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Tom8 wrote:similar mobility abilities to the RMs Viking vehicles
TD just came out with an in-depth article about which vehicles in the BA are airliftable. As for deploying to and within theatres like Norway, I would check the max underslung weights that Chinooks and Merlins can handle, with ref. to "Protection and firepower enhancements have seen the vehicle weight increase from 8,000 to 12,250 kg".
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Tom8
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Re: CRV(T) Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Post by Tom8 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:TD just came out with an in-depth article about which vehicles in the BA are airliftable. As for deploying to and within theatres like Norway, I would check the max underslung weights that Chinooks and Merlins can handle, with ref. to "Protection and firepower enhancements have seen the vehicle weight increase from 8,000 to 12,250 kg".

Thanks for the TD report. After having a quick look, it appears the MK2 needs to loose c500kg to be chinook lifted. The Viking also appears to be too heavy for the merlin, even when split (possibly the additional 2016 armour/upgrades are the reason), so we would have to supply the RM with quite a few chinooks.

However, I was thinking more that the scimitars would be airlifted by a400m or c-17 as part of a rapidly deployed force (thinking of Sierra Leone type of operation)

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Re: CRV(T) Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Post by Lord Jim »

Can either a Merlin or Chinook lift a Foxhound (with RWS) or Jackal?

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Re: CRV(T) Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Post by SW1 »

Lord Jim wrote:Can either a Merlin or Chinook lift a Foxhound (with RWS) or Jackal?
Chinook can


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