UK Defence Forum

^ HMS Sabre (P285)

Introduction
The Scimitar class is a class of fast patrol boat in service with the British Royal Navy.

The two vessels of this class are of a commercial design known as the Lifespan Patrol Vessel built by Halmatic (now BAE Systems Surface Ships), and formerly served in an inshore waterways anti-terrorist role in Northern Ireland. They were acquired for the Royal Navy in 2003 for service with the Gibraltar Squadron, the two boats allowed the two Archer-class patrol vessels of the squadron, Trumpeter and Ranger, to be reassigned to the Cyprus Squadron in April 2003 and April 2004 respectively.

With the decommissioning of the survey launch HMS Gleaner in 2018, the two Scimitar-class boats are set to become the smallest commissioned vessels in the Royal Navy.

HMS Scimitar
HMS Scimitar is a Scimitar-class fast patrol boat of the British Royal Navy. She is a Lifespan Patrol Vessel type boat and formerly served in inland waterway duties in Northern Ireland as MV Grey Fox. She was acquired to serve with the Gibraltar Squadron, tasked with policing, customs and search and rescue duties. This released an Archer-class patrol vessel for tasking with the Cyprus Squadron.

Scimitar was involved in a diplomatic incident between the United Kingdom and Spain in November 2009 after being alleged by the Spanish to have been using the Spanish flag as a target during gunnery practice. The Ministry of Defence stated that the ship had actually been shooting at a NATO maritime signal flag, which is similar in appearance.

On 3 May 2011 Scimitar was dispatched to intercept the Spanish Serviola-class patrol boat Atalaya when she entered British waters around Gibraltar and ordered ships to leave the area

HMS Sabre
On Friday 10 April 2009 a vessel from Spain's Civil Guard Police force entered Gibraltar territorial waters unannounced and approached the area near Gibraltar Airport. HMS Sabre approached, and there was no response from the Spanish vessel. It was warned to leave the territorial waters, and after consulting with its superiors it did so. However, accounts vary between the Royal Navy and the Spanish versions. The Royal Navy states that its guns were armed at the time, however the Spanish accounts state that the guns were specifically pointed at the Spanish vessel. In addition, Spanish MP Jose Ignacio Landaluce from the People's Party has vowed to take up the issue in Parliament. He said Spain "would not allow a Civil Guard vessel to be expelled from its own home".

1. HMS Scimitar (P284) Commissioned ? (ex-MV Grey Fox)
2. HMS Sabre (P285) Commissioned 2003 (ex-MV Grey Wolf)

Type: Patrol boat
Displacement: 24 tonnes (24 long tons)
Length: 16 m (52 ft 6 in)
Beam: 3.1 m (10 ft 2 in)
Draught: 1.2 m (3 ft 11 in)
Propulsion: 2 × MAN 2480LXE diesels, 2 shafts
Speed: 32 knots (37 mph; 59 km/h)
Range: 260 nmi (480 km) at 19 kn (35 km/h)
Crew Complement: 7 (1 officer, 6 ratings)
Sensors and processing systems: Racal-Decca Bridgemaster 360, I band navigation radar
Armament: 2 × General purpose machine guns (stern-mounted)

Great vessels that perform an essential role. Though they may be very constrained due to the political situation, the ships and the RN crews that operate them do sterling work, with little recognition.

yes the IRA threatend to sink them when they were in Northern Ireland on Lough neagh.

I do wonder should the Navy look at a common hull small patrol vessel in conjunction with the Border Service, URNU and for the RNR.

A single class between 20m & 50M

that could be used for patrol (armed and unarmed) and training. With Sensors and if needed weapons tailored to role.

Going to need more then teeth painted on them to be any kind of deterrent. Simply not up to the job.

HMS Scimitar escorts charity yacht race

HMS Scimitar, one of Gibraltar Squadron’s two fast patrol boats, has been stretching her legs outside of her normal patrols around British Gibraltar Territorial Waters on a visit to the Moroccan port of Smir.

Not to be outdone by their First Patrol Boat Squadron counterparts at the America’s World Cup in Portsmouth HMS Scimitar, in company with forty-eight yachts, sailed as the official escort to the 2016 Ocean Village/Boatshed Gibraltar Morocco Yacht Rally.

The yachts, a record number since the rally was first held in 2000, took part in the charity race from ‘the Rock’ to the north-African port to raise money for the Gibraltar Red Cross, successfully raising £10,591.33 in total.

Scimitar was the first Royal Navy warship ever to visit Smir, along with the flotilla of yachts, and was welcomed alongside by the Naval Regional Commander.

The twenty-eight nautical mile race was complete within a few hours before Scimitar’s Ship’s Company were headed ashore to see the souks and souvenirs available in Tetouan.

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-la ... yacht-race

Sabre ready for fresh duties on the Rock

Being lowered back into Gibraltar harbour is one of the two fast patrol boats which help safeguard the waters around the Rock.

HMS Sabre was hauled out of the Med for five weeks for her annual survey/refit (it usually takes six, but thanks to the skill and depth of experience of local firm Bolaños and the engineers of the RN Gibraltar Squadron, they finished the overhaul a week early).

The work carried out on the 23-year-old boat included re-painting and cleaning of the hull to improve her speed through the water (sadly the shark’s teeth once painted on her bow have long since gone) and an overhaul of her two MAN V10 diesel engines which power the 24-tonne boat through territorial waters (and occasionally beyond) at speeds of up to 32kts (36mph).

While she was out of the water, sister HMS Scimitar was patrolling around Gib (plus the squadron’s RIBs, and civilian police craft) and escorting visiting British and Allied warships – including HMS Daring, Diamond and Bulwark – into and out of the naval base.

“I’m really pleased to see Sabre returning to the water ahead of schedule,” said her CO Lt Tom Lindsey. “Our engineering team, together with Bolaños, have worked hard to ensure that she is in the best possible condition to keep up the high operational tempo required in and around British Gibraltar Territorial Waters.”

With Sabre’s return RNGS is back to full strength in preparation for an upcoming deployment, ceremonial duties and Operational Sea Training at the end of the year.

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-la ... n-the-rock

Gibraltar Squadron to receive two new vessels to replace Scimitar

The Gibraltar Squadron is expecting to receive two new warships which will be more “capable”, “faster” and have “bigger guns”, to replace HMS Sabre and HMS Scimitar in the next two years.

GBC heard the news when it spent the morning on patrol with the squadron.

http://www.gbc.gi/news/gibraltar-squadr ... w-warships

Great news - I wonder what they are going for?

Post Brexit I think we'll need similar in the UK EEZ and Channel islands.

Repulse wrote:Great news - I wonder what they are going for?

Post Brexit I think we'll need similar in the UK EEZ and Channel islands.

Archer class ( with 20 mm gun ) fits.

Repulse wrote:I wonder what they are going for?

I wonder,too. If they were a new order, the wonderful industrial benefits would have been announced on the day. As there were none such (announcements), it will be a second-hand purchace ( call it an asset swap, sounds like we are in a huge profit... might be true, too).

"Faster" speed rules out the River, Hunt and Sandown classes as replacements, all of which are slower than a Scimitar.

Iv been saying it for a while but the new US mk6 patrol boat seems to fit what their asking for bang on.

It's larger faster and a fair bit better armed

I think what would be a good idea for the RN and the Gib Squadron, would be to get the uprated version of the new Royal Gibraltar Police patrol boat Sir Adrian Johns, by Camarc. Their 25m design has also been picked by the Royal Malaysian Police, who spec'd it with uprated engines (1800hp vs 1600hp) which increases the top speed to 35 Knots and by the looks of the line drawing in the brochure it has some sort of HMG up front (I'm guessing .50cal) it also has a Lloyds 100A1 classification. The RGP patrol boat has a crew of 7, so the same as the current Gibraltar Squadron vessels. I tried having a look for a cost and only came across one speculative mention of £1.5m for the RGP boat to be manufactured in Croatia 3 years ago.

Holyhead Marine have built Camarc designs before so they should be able to build the 25m vessels no problem. Order 2 with the bigger engines, fit it with a .50 on the bow and have a GPMG on each side and that takes care of the bigger vessel (50% bigger than Scimitar class), faster and better armed vessel requirement. Possibly fit it with the same ballistic protection as the RM island class vessel/ORCs and you'd have a great pair of vessels. I'd like to think you could get the pair of them, with the fit-out I've mentioned with change from £10m in todays money (somebody will now come along and say I'm dreaming!). Plus the added advantage that hopefully money could be saved by pooling common parts and maintenance with the RGP?

http://www.camarc.com/patrol-boats/4581875720 the pdfs for 25m patrol boats are towards the bottom of the page


Line drawing from camarc of the RGP 25m Patrol Boat, I'm sure SKB or someone could take it and mock it up in RN colours with a .50 cal on the front

abc123 wrote:Archer class ( with 20 mm gun ) fits.

Not so unlikely, I would have said. Re-engine a couple to get the designed 45kts and move over a 20mm liberated from an RFA or River B1 (must be around 10 Oerlikons from the Rover class sat in a warehouse somewhere) and you have a cheap upgrade to the Gib squadron's capabilities. Maybe Ranger and Trumpeter are moving back (they still have the 20mm mounts, I think)? Maybe also move the Scimitars back to the UK for harbour patrol duties around the carriers, or to cover a couple of the smaller URNU units.
I would love to see a couple of Mk 6s, but at $15m apiece, I think they are too pricey . Or maybe a CB90 or two....

Perhaps what is needed is a 30mm weapon that uses 30mm x 173 APFSDS-T rounds. These are supercavitating and hence very good at putting holes in boats below the waterline.

Somewhat depends upon Gib's rules of engagement...

Aethulwulf wrote:Perhaps what is needed is a 30mm weapon that uses 30mm x 173 APFSDS-T rounds. These are supercavitating and hence very good at putting holes in boats below the waterline.

Somewhat depends upon Gib's rules of engagement...

Take the Oerlikon 20mm cannon from the Batch 1 River Class. The only money spent would be on fitting them.

Zealot wrote:

Aethulwulf wrote:Perhaps what is needed is a 30mm weapon that uses 30mm x 173 APFSDS-T rounds. These are supercavitating and hence very good at putting holes in boats below the waterline.

Somewhat depends upon Gib's rules of engagement...

Take the Oerlikon 20mm cannon from the Batch 1 River Class. The only money spent would be on fitting them.

Two 0.50 cal BMG with API-T

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new- ... -announces

Could this order include the replacements?

dmereifield wrote:https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new- ... -announces

Could this order include the replacements?

Not for the 2 Gibraltar patrol craft, but probably for HMS Gleaner? Could be put on the back of River or inside a T26 modular bay.

Repulse wrote:

dmereifield wrote:https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new- ... -announces

Could this order include the replacements?

Not for the 2 Gibraltar patrol craft, but probably for HMS Gleaner? Could be put on the back of River or inside a T26 modular bay.

Okie doke

Been reading about the WW2 Coastal Forces over the hols. Seems to me that the role of the Scimitars and the 2 Archers at Clyde are akin to the Harbour defence motor launches (HDMLs).

Strikes me that with the increase threat from terrorism, incursion and reliance on a smaller number of key ports / HUVs, that the need for HDMLs is increasing.

I'd say that not only would they need speed, but also reasonable sensors / armament to tackle surface, sub surface and air threats; especially UAVs and swarm motor boats.

Some say the CB90 is a good candidate, but I'd say that a specific design is needed. For example:

- @20m length
- 40 kt max speed with a range @500nm
- SharpEye SCV radar
- Kongsberg SIMRAD sonar
- 30mm gun (possible Sigma Seahawk with LMM)
- Twin GPMGs
- Depth charges

Total class 12 ships, 2 in each port: Clyde, Portsmouth, Plymouth, Cyprus, Gibraltar and Oman.

CB90 is awesome, but Depth charges?

shark bait wrote:CB90 is awesome, but Depth charges?

CB90 can carry 6 depth charges. Still I'd say a specific HDML ship is required as the CB90 is primarily designed as a landing craft.

Repulse wrote:Been reading about the WW2 Coastal Forces over the hols. Seems to me that the role of the Scimitars and the 2 Archers at Clyde are akin to the Harbour defence motor launches (HDMLs).

Strikes me that with the increase threat from terrorism, incursion and reliance on a smaller number of key ports / HUVs, that the need for HDMLs is increasing.

I'd say that not only would they need speed, but also reasonable sensors / armament to tackle surface, sub surface and air threats; especially UAVs and swarm motor boats.

Some say the CB90 is a good candidate, but I'd say that a specific design is needed. For example:

- @20m length
- 40 kt max speed with a range @500nm
- SharpEye SCV radar
- Kongsberg SIMRAD sonar
- 30mm gun (possible Sigma Seahawk with LMM)
- Twin GPMGs
- Depth charges

Total class 12 ships, 2 in each port: Clyde, Portsmouth, Plymouth, Cyprus, Gibraltar and Oman.

The idea itself is good, but how much will it cost?

I won't be surprised if it costs 40M GBP per unit or even more. With 12 of these, 480M GBP, or more. Then crew. I suspect at least 24 without overnight watch, with overnight, will be as much as 35. With 12 of these, 288 or 420 will be needed.

I'm afraid we shall look for something with much modest plans. Say, super dvora class at maximum, while I prefer CB90.