Scimitar Class Fast Patrol Vessels (RN)

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Aethulwulf
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Re: Scimitar Class Fast Patrol Vessels (RN)

Post by Aethulwulf »

Talk of weapon fit for new Gibraltar fast patrol launches being a RWS, plus mounts for light weapons. 6 man crew (plus second 6 man watch for longer missions).

RWS possibly something like the Sea Protector by Kongsberg. 0.50 cal probably most likely fit for RWS. But...

https://youtu.be/jtUpLwUvqvQ

...There has been a lot of interest in fitting the 30mm M230LF (as used on the Apache AH-64) to a RWS. Does anyone know if this weapon has been integrated with a RWS intended for use at sea?

Repulse
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Re: Scimitar Class Fast Patrol Vessels (RN)

Post by Repulse »

Anyone have any news on the replacements? There was chat about about the first coming this year, but the last thing I can find from last September suggests the timeframe is next “couple of years”.

https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-l ... operations
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

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RichardIC
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Re: Scimitar Class Fast Patrol Vessels (RN)

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Tempest414
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Re: Scimitar Class Fast Patrol Vessels (RN)

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RichardIC wrote:
well hopefully we will what the bidders come with

S M H
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Re: Scimitar Class Fast Patrol Vessels (RN)

Post by S M H »

The replacement specification for speed and endurance is not far from the requirement that the Mk 2 Rescue target towing launches operate by 1102 M C U. I wonder if with the recent resurgence of the Russian navy has required the need to go to there western Mediterranean anchorage on the banks. This would explain the large range increase requirement. They need to also improve the weapons fitted to the replacements

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Re: Scimitar Class Fast Patrol Vessels (RN)

Post by Repulse »

Two replacements announced - slightly bigger, but lacks some oomph in terms of weapons IMO.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/gibralt ... rol-craft/
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

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Tempest414
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Re: Scimitar Class Fast Patrol Vessels (RN)

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I have to say I would like to see a 12.7mm GAU-19 up front and 2 12.7mm HMG's on the back

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RichardIC
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Re: Scimitar Class Fast Patrol Vessels (RN)

Post by RichardIC »

Tempest414 wrote:I have to say I would like to see a 12.7mm GAU-19 up front and 2 12.7mm HMG's on the back
For what purpose?

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Tempest414
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Re: Scimitar Class Fast Patrol Vessels (RN)

Post by Tempest414 »

With the new boats speed ( 40 knots ) and the rate of fire of a GAU-19 plus its effective range of 1500 to 2000 meters they are in with a good shot of stopping drug boats across the straits

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Re: Scimitar Class Fast Patrol Vessels (RN)

Post by Scimitar54 »

If we still have any, I would prefer the 2 x 0.5’s at the stern, with a 20mm Oerlikon on the bow! :mrgreen:

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RichardIC
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Re: Scimitar Class Fast Patrol Vessels (RN)

Post by RichardIC »

Tempest414 wrote:With the new boats speed ( 40 knots ) and the rate of fire of a GAU-19 plus its effective range of 1500 to 2000 meters they are in with a good shot of stopping drug boats across the straits
Not the Gibraltar Squadron’s job.

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Tempest414
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Re: Scimitar Class Fast Patrol Vessels (RN)

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RichardIC wrote:
Tempest414 wrote:With the new boats speed ( 40 knots ) and the rate of fire of a GAU-19 plus its effective range of 1500 to 2000 meters they are in with a good shot of stopping drug boats across the straits
Not the Gibraltar Squadron’s job.
If not it should be however simple fact a 12.7 mm HMG is more effective and with greater range than a GPMG

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Re: Scimitar Class Fast Patrol Vessels (RN)

Post by jimthelad »

Actually that is not true. The 7.62 SAP round +/- tracer has similar range and a higher rate of fire. If you combine with the minigun then the chances of a first burst hit significantly improve especially if you factor in moving target and moving firing platform. The US army did several studies on this following the drawdown in Afghanistan.

12.7mm has a higher energy density but the slower rate of fire and therefore higher aiming negative coefficient due to manual aim and moving platform mean that the 7.62mm is likely to hit at range. The 12.7mm mounts on choppers are more stable and ironically have less operator bias but even then the rate and volume of fire of 7.62 is hard to ignore.

When we switched to the M2 from GPMG on the vehicles we found that it made an impressive noise and could knock holes in walls etc better than the 7.62mm standard ball ammo but it was actually less likely to have first burst hit probability out to about 800m. When we had to use it for real the GMPG provided a better suppression effect than the M2. It may be that we had more GPMG and that the M2 on my bus was bolloxed by DsK round in the first round of handbags, but it seemed that way.

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Re: Scimitar Class Fast Patrol Vessels (RN)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Scimitar Class Fast Patrol Vessels (RN)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Repulse wrote:Two replacements announced - slightly bigger, but lacks some oomph in terms of weapons IMO.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/gibralt ... rol-craft/
jimthelad wrote: 12.7mm has a higher energy density but the slower rate of fire and therefore higher aiming negative coefficient due to manual aim and moving platform mean that the 7.62mm is likely to hit at range.
Looks like BMT has a hand in this:
"BMT to design new patrol boats for Gibraltar Squadron

BMT on 14 September announced a ‘major design milestone’ in the programme to build two new 19m fast patrol boats"
- if you are pursuing something, then knocking holes to it comes in handy
- so the first one likely to be swapped is the one on the fore deck; does not mean that the other two need to
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Re: Scimitar Class Fast Patrol Vessels (RN)

Post by jimthelad »

Would need a lot of holes to stop it that way. The soft squidgy things inside are better targets.

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SKB
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Re: Scimitar Class Fast Patrol Vessels (RN)

Post by SKB »

Image
(NavyLookout) 25th September 2020
MV Anvil Point departs Gibraltar carrying HMS Scimitar and HMS Sabre as deck cargo - bound for the UK.

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Re: Scimitar Class Fast Patrol Vessels (RN)

Post by Repulse »

This came out of the blue for me - did I miss something, or has news been sparse on these new boats?

”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

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Re: Scimitar Class Fast Patrol Vessels (RN)

Post by Lord Jim »

Can the Scimitars take a RWS for a 7.62mm or .50cal at the bow?

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Re: Scimitar Class Fast Patrol Vessels (RN)

Post by SKB »

Image
21st April 2021 - Royal Navy confirms two new fast patrol boats, named HMS Dagger and HMS Cutlass - both built by MST Ltd.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/roya ... trol-boats

MST Ltd: https://www.mstltd.com/new-uk-mod-win-royal-navy/

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Re: Scimitar Class Fast Patrol Vessels (RN)

Post by Repulse »

Scimitar class up for disposal. A real shame IMO as the need of a fleet of fast patrol craft is increasing IMO.

https://www.armscor.co.za/wp-content/up ... ich-V1.pdf
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Re: Scimitar Class Fast Patrol Vessels (RN)

Post by Lord Jim »

So are the Puma HC2s! Another gap forming.

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Re: Scimitar Class Fast Patrol Vessels (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Repulse wrote: 20 Nov 2021, 09:32 Scimitar class up for disposal. A real shame IMO as the need of a fleet of fast patrol craft is increasing IMO.
At where "the need of a fleet of fast patrol craft" is increasing? With patrol USVs coming, I think any such needs will be filled by USVs? (just genuine question).

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Re: Scimitar Class Fast Patrol Vessels (RN)

Post by Repulse »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 22 Nov 2021, 23:25
Repulse wrote: 20 Nov 2021, 09:32 Scimitar class up for disposal. A real shame IMO as the need of a fleet of fast patrol craft is increasing IMO.
At where "the need of a fleet of fast patrol craft" is increasing? With patrol USVs coming, I think any such needs will be filled by USVs? (just genuine question).
USVs have a role to play for surveillance, MCM, Survey and increasingly offensive actions, but by definition they do not carry people. Challenging and boarding suspicious vessels still need humans and in the grey zone we will still need people to make decisions. I see UK/BOT ports becoming more likely for non conventional “attacks”, hence the need for more fast craft.

Lastly, with a fashion to go for fewer / larger vessels these boats play a crucial part of training new officers.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

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Re: Scimitar Class Fast Patrol Vessels (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Repulse wrote: 23 Nov 2021, 08:14USVs have a role to play for surveillance, MCM, Survey and increasingly offensive actions, but by definition they do not carry people. Challenging and boarding suspicious vessels still need humans and in the grey zone we will still need people to make decisions. I see UK/BOT ports becoming more likely for non conventional “attacks”, hence the need for more fast craft.

Lastly, with a fashion to go for fewer / larger vessels these boats play a crucial part of training new officers.
Scimitar class was replace by Cutlass class. It was "cutless" :D

I agree it is not "increase" but surely not decrease/cut.

The point will be the replacement for Archer-class patrol vessels. Only 2 of them are at Faslane for patrol tasks, and 12 of them are URNU = training (2 coming back from Gib is to do what?).

Anyway, USV introduction requires money. MCM USVs are covered by MHC budget. But, I have no idea the patrol USV will be purchased with what budget. Say, by sacrificing what? RN is already sacrificing I-SSGW for something. Additional F35B is not yet committed. RAF is going with only 3 E-7s, and only 9 E-8s (which must have been 5 and 12, at least, in my opinion). If patrol-USV is coming in place of part of the Archer-class, while leaving the UNRU with smaller crafts, which could be the USV-itself or the Atlas's work boats itself, it will be fine for me...

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