Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

[Caribbean]

Agreed that the P2000 replacement don't need to be a single class.

The 15m Officer Training variant of the SEA class would be a good replacement for the University boats, though the larger units may need more than one boat. The 18m might be even better

Should we actually need to rapidly develop a class of harbour & harbour approaches defence launches, I think they would also be a good candidate. They are classed as MCA Cat 2, so they can operate up to 60 miles from a port. Their modular nature means that they could be configured as sonar pickets and weapons carriers (even carrying LWT or depth charges). There are probably other good candidates, but they are a class that we already have in use, so offer the advantage of common logistics and could be built by dozens of small yards relatively quickly, with the modules being built at land-based factories

For commandos/ amphibious operations, the future CIC landing craft seems to be the right way to go (And/Or a future LCAC).

The P2000s are increasingly being used for things like aggressor training on exercises, as well as operations in the North Sea & along the coast of Norway. They are apparently doing a good job, but I'm not sure that they are ideally suited for the job.

If we also add in the increased focus on protecting North Sea infrastucture, potentially against overt aggression,, then I think we need to be looking at something larger and more capable in that role

[donald_of_tokyo]

The P2000 replacements do not need to be a single class, what we should consider is what would be their role in a war to support the RN.

I see three:
- Harbour defence - Portsmouth, Devonport and Faslane need patrol ships, also we should be ready to deploy to places like Cyprus etc as has been done in the past.
- Coastal ASW / MCM patrols - Whilst unmanned systems can fill part of the gap, there’s a lot of area to cover especially in tricky littoral zones around the UK.

That’s why a SeaClass would be a bad choice IMO, I would entertain another Magpie, but there is enough training / diving craft already delivered by the current programme.

CIC is not a reserve role neither IMO, it’s a day one fighting requirement.

Look more Cutlass class and XV Damen type ships IMO.

Genuine question.

- "a SeaClass would be a bad choice". Why? If we take off the "training cabin" from SeaClass 15, it can be virtually a larger brother of ARCIMS USV. It can be used as USVs in war time by adding the same remote control system, and do the real job elsewhere around Britain and UK's overseas ports. It can be configures as unmanned MCM boat, as well as unmanned centurion boat. Big win?

Also, as UNRU boat, it is small and cheap to operate, because there are numbers of them (better logistics). Being cheap to support, having clear war-time task, the boat will be very good for RN, I think.


- "CIC is not a reserve role neither". I think landing crafts are used only in a limited cases, while it will be needed in number (surge) when actual amphibious operation starts. In other words, landing crafts having secondary tasks is very important not to waste them.

Currently, LCVP Mk.5 is so-so fast (25 knots full) but its open deck prevents it to be used as a good patrol boat. CIC differs a lot. It is designed to have longer range (far beyond the horizon), so-so high speed (good also as an attack boat), stealthy (the same), and has an enclosed cabin. It can also carry some amount of cargo in place, which means it can be added with modular armaments, when needed.

In peace time, CIC can be used as as a training and fast-patrol assets.
In war time, CIC can be used as a fast-patrol asset for inshore/coastal/harbour defense.
In war time with amphibious operation, all the CIC can be accumulated to join the TF. Two dozens of CIC raiding enemy shore will be a nightmare, much more than current only 8 LCVPs RN has.

[Repulse]

- "a SeaClass would be a bad choice". Why? If we take off the "training cabin" from SeaClass 15, it can be virtually a larger brother of ARCIMS USV. It can be used as USVs in war time by adding the same remote control system, and do the real job elsewhere around Britain and UK's overseas ports. It can be configures as unmanned MCM boat, as well as unmanned centurion boat. Big win?

One thing I didn’t realise is there is a 18m version of the workboat, so yes it could be part of the mix. Just need to ensure it has a large enough work deck and good sea handling.

The reason why I think the other two classes is the Cutlass class is designed for force protection which outside of the RM Island Class boats the RN will lack once the P2000s go, and the FCS 4008 class as it is large enough to carry pods and operate in higher sea states / further away from shore.

[donald_of_tokyo]

- "a SeaClass would be a bad choice". Why? If we take off the "training cabin" from SeaClass 15, it can be virtually a larger brother of ARCIMS USV. It can be used as USVs in war time by adding the same remote control system, and do the real job elsewhere around Britain and UK's overseas ports. It can be configures as unmanned MCM boat, as well as unmanned centurion boat. Big win?

One thing I didn’t realise is there is a 18m version of the workboat, so yes it could be part of the mix. Just need to ensure it has a large enough work deck and good sea handling.

The reason why I think the other two classes is the Cutlass class is designed for force protection which outside of the RM Island Class boats the RN will lack once the P2000s go, and the FCS 4008 class as it is large enough to carry pods and operate in higher sea states / further away from shore.

Thanks. I think 15m version of Sea class is good for harbor defense.

Size is not a problem. US Navy has
- 34-foot Dauntless Sea Ark patrol boat
- and ordering 40-foot Defiant patrol boat
for harbor defense. Having a 15m long boat is not too small here (if combined with a larger boat).

Also, if it is unmanned, there will be no sea-sickness and the boat can be operated very long, on station. Arming the boat with RWS could be done. An unmanned 24/7 operating sentry, remote monitored from land, will be a big addition to RN.

At the same time, Damen SeaAxe Stan 4008 class boat (those used in RN Navy-X) is one of my favorite design. It is 42m long, and its hull form is designed to reduce acceleration ("g") when hitting the swell/wave. It is very good for crew comfort when steaming at so-so speed in high sea. In addition, it has a good stern deck.

Replacing 17 Archer with twelve SeaClass 15 (with USV option), and six Damen 4008. Good thing of adopting Seaclass 15m boat is it is small and cheap (to buy and operate), which will make way for the cost of building six 42-m long craft. It will also be important not to increase the number of naval engineers needed to operate these fleet.

[new guy]

- "a SeaClass would be a bad choice". Why? If we take off the "training cabin" from SeaClass 15, it can be virtually a larger brother of ARCIMS USV. It can be used as USVs in war time by adding the same remote control system, and do the real job elsewhere around Britain and UK's overseas ports. It can be configures as unmanned MCM boat, as well as unmanned centurion boat. Big win?

One thing I didn’t realise is there is a 18m version of the workboat, so yes it could be part of the mix. Just need to ensure it has a large enough work deck and good sea handling.

The reason why I think the other two classes is the Cutlass class is designed for force protection which outside of the RM Island Class boats the RN will lack once the P2000s go, and the FCS 4008 class as it is large enough to carry pods and operate in higher sea states / further away from shore.

Note the RM Island class needs replacement; the new batch of 18 MoD police boats only replace 9 MoD police ones and 2 Gibraltar defence boats - Meaning the MoD police is getting nearly 2x as many boats soon! Yet RM ones still need to be replaced.


https://www.bmt.org/news/2022/successfu ... rol-craft/

[new guy]

Note MST Group has a 23m design, in the same family as both the new MOD police boats and the Cutlass class. This is very ideal.
https://www.mstltd.com/mst-craft/craft- ... rol-craft/

[new guy]

Also note that there is a programme to replace the Border force cutters right now.

[RichardIC]

Also note that there is a programme to replace the Border force cutters right now.

Not yet there isn't. It's been delayed by this shambolic Government.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/0 ... h-channel/

FLEET PROCUREMENT DELAYS

The £224 million procurement process for the new fleet was due to be launched in April 2022 but last year was pushed back until April 2024.

However, Home Office documents, published last month, revealed the procurement process had been delayed again until March 2026.

The work is not expected to be completed by at least a year later, meaning it will be halfway through the next parliament before the new fleet promised by Mr Sunak in 2021 will be fully operational.

[new guy]

Also note that there is a programme to replace the Border force cutters right now.

Not yet there isn't. It's been delayed by this shambolic Government.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/0 ... h-channel/

FLEET PROCUREMENT DELAYS

The £224 million procurement process for the new fleet was due to be launched in April 2022 but last year was pushed back until April 2024.

However, Home Office documents, published last month, revealed the procurement process had been delayed again until March 2026.

The work is not expected to be completed by at least a year later, meaning it will be halfway through the next parliament before the new fleet promised by Mr Sunak in 2021 will be fully operational.

I mean Archer replacement OSD is still very far away, so...