UK Defence Forum

Tempest414 wrote:I agree but babcocks boat will come from hot UK line as boat 3 meaning no learning and that might have some merit

Are you suggesting they use the same design/hull for the Ukrainian missile boats and the border force cutters?

Let us hope that they deliver the correct version to each customer then !

Scimitar54 wrote:Let us hope that they deliver the correct version to each customer then !

Same boats, different paint jobs....

dmereifield wrote:Same boats, different paint jobs....

Not sure. Modern specialist cutter/coast-guard patrol boats are much more optimized for their tasks. Very efficient, which matches very well with (often) thin man-power and support resources in BF/coast-guards. See Damen Stan Patrol 4207. Cannot be a missile boat, but is a very efficient and popular patrol boat.

donald_of_tokyo wrote:

dmereifield wrote:Same boats, different paint jobs....

Not sure. Modern specialist cutter/coast-guard patrol boats are much more optimized for their tasks. Very efficient, which matches very well with (often) thin man-power and support resources in BF/coast-guards. See Damen Stan Patrol 4207. Cannot be a missile boat, but is a very efficient and popular patrol boat.

Thanks Donald, I always enjoy reading your well informed and well constructed posts, but I was just jesting on this occasion

Looking on first page of this thread, I can't beleive that we have the following organisations responsible for policing and patrolling our borders:
Border force (BF) - reports to Home Office
Her Majesty's Coastguard (HMCG) - reports to Department for Transport (DfT)
Overseas Patrol Squadron - part of Royal Navy, reports to Ministry of Defence (MoD)
Add in the individual 45 territorial Police Forces in the UK and it is a right muddle.

It definitely feels as if we could do with a more beefed up US Coastguard style force to get to grips with migrant crisis and patrolling/policing UK waters. Even if the Cutters main weapon was a water-cannon, they should be armed with small arms, just like UK airport Police.

I liked the previous suggestion of painting up the current Cutters and Inshore Patrol Vessels in the white and red colours of HMCG helicopter shown earlier in the thread. But just Five Cutters and six RIB feel inadequate for the thousands of kilometres of UK coastline. Let's hope the UK Government can dig behind the sofa and find £20m - £30m to buy some additional Cutters.

You forgot BTP, MOD Police and Civil Nuclear Police and the half a dozen or so Port/Harbour police

There is very little border force can to physically deter them crossing without the risk of drowning women and children which the media would have a field day on. There needs to be some way to fast track their applications and once rejected quickly return them home within days of arriving.

tomuk wrote: ↑23 Nov 2021, 02:21 You forgot BTP, MOD Police and Civil Nuclear Police and the half a dozen or so Port/Harbour police

Exactly. Too much overlap = lack of clarity in whose responsibility in dealing with = left to someone else.

BB85 wrote: ↑23 Nov 2021, 13:01 There is very little border force can to physically deter them crossing without the risk of drowning women and children which the media would have a field day on. There needs to be some way to fast track their applications and once rejected quickly return them home within days of arriving.

How many times do we read of migrants travelling through four or five countries, countries in which they could have claimed assylum, to get to UK, because we have a porous border despite being an island.....

So on news night last night they show HMG figures showing imargation was down 40% over all and even though small boat crossings are up this was put down to the lack of air travel also EU imagration was down by 60% so a better way would be to fly them in fast track apps and fly them back out as needed

AS far as I am concerned, no migrants arriving in the UK by unofficial means should be able to claim asylum. All, including children should be returned to the last safe country they were in, basically France. If a small boat is intercepted, it should take those on the boat aboard and take them back to France. Those that have a good case for being allowed to enter the UK should use UK consular facilities, which should be established in northern France. If they worked for the UK in places like Afghanistan they should be allowed in, but reasons like they already have family in teh UK should count for little.

Lord Jim wrote: ↑23 Nov 2021, 18:53 AS far as I am concerned, no migrants arriving in the UK by unofficial means should be able to claim asylum. All, including children should be returned to the last safe country they were in, basically France. If a small boat is intercepted, it should take those on the boat aboard and take them back to France. Those that have a good case for being allowed to enter the UK should use UK consular facilities, which should be established in northern France. If they worked for the UK in places like Afghanistan they should be allowed in, but reasons like they already have family in teh UK should count for little.

100% agree. Tighten the border and prevent illegal migrants. Then controlled increase in lawful migrants, allowing those who have valid reasons to want to come here as opposed to the countries that have travelled through. Those that can prove that they worked and helped UK in Afghanistan are perfect examples of this.

Even if the Cutters main weapon was a water-cannon, they should be armed with small arms, just like UK airport Police.

Who you planning on shooting?

Then controlled increase in lawful migrants, allowing those who have valid reasons to want to come here as opposed to the countries that have travelled through.

A valid reason like not wanting to starve or be killed in a civil war you want no part of. BTW those countries they travel through, including Greece, which has a tiny economy compared to the UK and far more economic challenges, accept far more migants than than we do. It's a complete myth that we have disproportionally higher illegal migration than most of the rest of Europe.

BB85 wrote: ↑23 Nov 2021, 13:01 There is very little border force can to physically deter them crossing without the risk of drowning women and children which the media would have a field day on. There needs to be some way to fast track their applications and once rejected quickly return them home within days of arriving.

Oh puleeze. There’s hardly a single person there who’s not a fit male in their early 20s, and if they’re worried about drowning they wouldn’t be braving the channel. If there’s really very little that they can do then they should be sacked and the budget given to the navy

SD67 wrote: ↑23 Nov 2021, 23:32 Oh puleeze. There’s hardly a single person there who’s not a fit male in their early 20s, and if they’re worried about drowning they wouldn’t be braving the channel. If there’s really very little that they can do then they should be sacked and the budget given to the navy

You may not have noticed, but nearly every boat arriving has a token woman and small child as part of the load.

RichardIC wrote: ↑23 Nov 2021, 22:09

Even if the Cutters main weapon was a water-cannon, they should be armed with small arms, just like UK airport Police.

Who you planning on shooting?

They have some armed police in patrol cars on the Motorways and in London, and routinely have police with submachine guns at main airports. British Transport Police have trained Authorised Firearms Officer (AFO) on railways etc.

Who are they (the above examples of UK police) planning on shooting? They are not PLANNING on shooting anyone....

If you don't think we should have some armed officers in the Border Force, those being specially trained and regulated in their potential use of firearms, then I have nothing further to say to you.

They have some armed police in patrol cars on the Motorways and in London, and routinely have police with submachine guns at main airports. British Transport Police have trained Authorised Firearms Officer (AFO) on railways etc.

Who are they (the above examples of UK police) planning on shooting? They are not PLANNING on shooting anyone....

If you don't think we should have some armed officers in the Border Force, those being specially trained and regulated in their potential use of firearms, then I have nothing further to say to you.

That’s a lot of whataboutery but not an answer. And of course police at airports plan to use their weapons (Google: terrorist incidents at airports).

Glad to hear you have nothing further to say.

UK Ministry of Defence Police (MDP) has ordered 18 15m-class fast patrol boats. Where are the current fleet is deployed/assigned? Can these vessels cover the "increasing demands" in fast patrol crafts?

In other words, what is the "work share" between BF cutters, RN fast patrol boats, and MDP fast patrol boats?

https://www.bmt.org/news/2021/bmt-secur ... ce-police/

RichardIC wrote: ↑24 Nov 2021, 06:31

They have some armed police in patrol cars on the Motorways and in London, and routinely have police with submachine guns at main airports. British Transport Police have trained Authorised Firearms Officer (AFO) on railways etc.

Who are they (the above examples of UK police) planning on shooting? They are not PLANNING on shooting anyone....

If you don't think we should have some armed officers in the Border Force, those being specially trained and regulated in their potential use of firearms, then I have nothing further to say to you.

That’s a lot of whataboutery but not an answer. And of course police at airports plan to use their weapons (Google: terrorist incidents at airports).

Glad to hear you have nothing further to say.

You ignored my comment about controlled increase in legal migration, so you clearly want to focus the "discussion" on the parts that suit your own personal viewpoints.....

RichardIC wrote: ↑23 Nov 2021, 22:09

Even if the Cutters main weapon was a water-cannon, they should be armed with small arms, just like UK airport Police.

Who you planning on shooting?

Any one of these 30,000 young men from the heartland of ISIS who turns out to be an angry extremist with a gun or a knife. GCHQ estimated 5% are probably "of concern". 1500 people is alot. The London bombings were organised by 7 blokes.

Once the migrants are in a dingy in the channel there is very little border patrol can legally or humanely do to deter them. A better options is to take them in and fast track them to eastern Europe to be processed officially. There was talk of the UK signing a deal with Albania. While there though the UK still has a responsibility to ensure they are properly taken care of

SD67 wrote: ↑26 Nov 2021, 10:03

RichardIC wrote: ↑23 Nov 2021, 22:09

Even if the Cutters main weapon was a water-cannon, they should be armed with small arms, just like UK airport Police.

Who you planning on shooting?

Any one of these 30,000 young men from the heartland of ISIS who turns out to be an angry extremist with a gun or a knife. GCHQ estimated 5% are probably "of concern". 1500 people is alot. The London bombings were organised by 7 blokes.

Firstly its 25,000 of which half are women and children and the fact is for most the choice is freezing to death in the channel or freezing to death in a camp somewhere in Europe or striving to death at home

It would be interesting to know how many here who spout on have had a mother so desperate for her child she tries to hand it to you knowing she can't go with the child

The simple fact is HMG is just shit it needs to get a grip of processing system and process claims within 6 months and not 6 years

A child is not an “It”, what is wrong with using “him” and/or “her” ? Or have we become so over gender sensitive that we refer to people as inanimate objects?

If we are actually talking about keeping people safe, rather than the politics, then there are a number of things that should be done, primarily to destroy the people traffickers business model - unfortunately this requires a great deal of co-operation from the French, who are locked in an odd mindset at the moment

Firstly, ensure that anyone attempting the Channel crossing is immediately returned to France - make it obvious that this route will not work and that they are wasting their time and money. This requires a complete change of attitude on the French side

Secondly, shut down the traffickers access to boats and engines - the French do seem to have started doing this in a half-hearted way.

Third - target the gangs - it is only in recent days that we have heard of any attempts by the French Police to close down the trafficking gangs (though they may well be doing it on the quiet)

None of this is particularly aimed at stopping migrants getting to the UK, it is primarily aimed at reducing the numbers attempting the crossing, There are many other things that could be done, such as changes to the law and improving formal routes of application, but that is more political than practical