Border Force Cutters.

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Lord Jim
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by Lord Jim »

It seems that in preparation for taking over the command of the channel and the anti Migrant operation, the Royal Navy is looking to lease ten new vessels with a lower free board that the Rivers currently on station. The later find it very difficult to bring Migrant on board due to the height of the decking above the waterline. An existing design will most likely be chosen with minimum modification needed before entry into service, but it is another increase in the Navy's fleet of smaller vessels.

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RichardIC
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

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Lord Jim wrote: 18 Feb 2022, 06:47 It seems that in preparation for taking over the command of the channel and the anti Migrant operation, the Royal Navy is looking to lease ten new vessels with a lower free board that the Rivers currently on station. The later find it very difficult to bring Migrant on board due to the height of the decking above the waterline. An existing design will most likely be chosen with minimum modification needed before entry into service, but it is another increase in the Navy's fleet of smaller vessels.
Got any source for this?

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Tempest414
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by Tempest414 »

The term anti migrant operation is just rubbish once the migrants are in the channel the game is over and we are forced by law to pick them up and bring them to the UK

Lord Jim
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

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So we need to change the law, one of the things that was promised during the whole Brexit debate. We should be allowed to pick them up and return them to their point of departure. If they were clever they would take EU citizenship and would be free to settle in any country and be able to visit relatives in the UK and eventually get a visa to come and work, far safer. We also need to fully accept that all those trying to cross teh Channel should be classified as Economic Migrants, and not Asylum Seekers, regardless of where they originate from. We need to take measures that ensure the UK is no more appealing to Migrants than any other European country, with few if any entitlements. Better leave it there so I fo not start ranting. This is a Defence Forum isn't it.
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RichardIC
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

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Lord Jim wrote: 18 Feb 2022, 15:45 So we need to change the law, one of the things that was promised during the whole Brexit debate. We should be allowed to pick them up and return them to their point of departure. If they were clever they would take EU citizenship and would be free to settle in any country and be able to visit relatives in the UK and eventually get a visa to come and work, far safer. We also need to fully accept that all those trying to cross teh Channel should be classified as Economic Migrants, and not Asylum Seekers, regardless of where they originate from. We need to take measures that ensure the UK is no more appealing to Migrants than any other European country, with few if any entitlements. Better leave it there so I fo not start ranting. This is a Defence Forum isn't it.
The law being referred to is international law numbskull. Still got no source for the stuff about Border Force Cutters above? Read it on Telegram??

Caribbean
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by Caribbean »

RichardIC wrote: 18 Feb 2022, 09:03 Got any source for this?
The power of Google shows the Daily Mail (Can't see any others). Also talking about a change in UK Law to reclassify Channel interceptions as being arrested "in the Channel, not in the UK". Presumably the intention is to use that to alter their subsequent treatment (maybe linked to mutterings about a detention centre "in the South Atlantic". Creative, but I'm not sure how it would fair in a Court

The bit about new boats with lower freeboard sounds fairly sensible - the RN will, as always, figure out how to do the task as safely as possible.
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RichardIC
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

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Caribbean wrote: 18 Feb 2022, 19:03
RichardIC wrote: 18 Feb 2022, 09:03 Got any source for this?
The power of Google shows the Daily Mail (Can't see any others). Also talking about a change in UK Law to reclassify Channel interceptions as being arrested "in the Channel, not in the UK". Presumably the intention is to use that to alter their subsequent treatment (maybe linked to mutterings about a detention centre "in the South Atlantic". Creative, but I'm not sure how it would fair in a Court

The bit about new boats with lower freeboard sounds fairly sensible - the RN will, as always, figure out how to do the task as safely as possible.
The Daily Mail obsesses about immigration and has literally published thousands of stories. So which are you referring to? (Ctrl C/Ctrl V)

And the border between the UK and France runs down the centre of the Channel. You're in one or the other. Although it would be prime-Priti to try and create some special status. It won't happen.

Still no source for Jim's flimflam above. Please share if you have one.

Caribbean
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by Caribbean »

RichardIC wrote: 18 Feb 2022, 22:18 which are you referring to? (Ctrl C/Ctrl V)
Clearly the google-fu is weak in this one

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... trols.html
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RichardIC
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by RichardIC »

Caribbean wrote: 18 Feb 2022, 22:46
RichardIC wrote: 18 Feb 2022, 22:18 which are you referring to? (Ctrl C/Ctrl V)
Clearly the google-fu is weak in this one

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... trols.html
Congrats, well done. Daily freaking Mail!

Caribbean
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by Caribbean »

RichardIC wrote: 19 Feb 2022, 04:13 Congrats, well done. Daily freaking Mail!
As I said in my original post on the subject!

You asked for a "source", 10 seconds on Google would have found it for you. Stop being so lazy!
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

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Tempest414 wrote: 18 Feb 2022, 10:11 The term anti migrant operation is just rubbish once the migrants are in the channel the game is over and we are forced by law to pick them up and bring them to the UK
Nonsense. There is no such law otherwise there would be no such thing as a national border. The only person who is protected under international law is a refugee, that status is tightly defined by the 1954 convention as someone fleeing actual persecution. Australia has been push back the boats for over a decade

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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by SD67 »

Would make a nice little order for Appledore
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Tempest414
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by Tempest414 »

SD67 wrote: 19 Feb 2022, 11:30
Tempest414 wrote: 18 Feb 2022, 10:11 The term anti migrant operation is just rubbish once the migrants are in the channel the game is over and we are forced by law to pick them up and bring them to the UK
Nonsense. There is no such law otherwise there would be no such thing as a national border. The only person who is protected under international law is a refugee, that status is tightly defined by the 1954 convention as someone fleeing actual persecution. Australia has been push back the boats for over a decade
If there is danger to life we have to pick them up by Law fact and the Australia has to do the same what they turn back is sea going ships nothing else

By the fact they are in a dingy in one of the most busy shipping lanes in the world means they are in danger

Now if we want to stop or slow down this we should have more patrol ships in the Med by the time they are in the channel it is to late

And anyone who has not served or seen first hand what many of these people have gone though need look. Fact is we fucked around in Syria we Fucked around in Afhang we Fucked around in Iraq we fucked around in Libya and now all these places are fucked and there people need to find homes and work which we in some part FUCKED


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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by Timmymagic »

I'm not a MOD guys but this seems to have gone a fair way from Border Force Cutters...probably best in the Political Discussions or Off-Topic Discussions sections.

Lord Jim
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by Lord Jim »

Oh dear all this started because I saw an article that said the Royal Navy was looking to LEASE up to ten patrol vessels to supplement the existing Birder Force Cutter when they take over responsibility for policing the Channel. This is simply because the RN believes there are not enough vessels to do the job and the vessels the Navy have have to high a hull/deck, making taking migrants on board difficult.

The second part was wondering why migrants seem so set on getting to the UK and why they do not want citizenship of the numerous European countries they have passed through. As for pushing back, I was not proposing pushing back their small boats/Dinghies, but rather taking them on board and then returning them to France. No one should have the right to illegally enter a country on economic grounds. None of those poor people who are victims of the People Smuggling Gangs have the right to claim asylum in the UK for they have already passed through countries which are safe to reach the Channel coast. They are entitled to be rescued from inappropriate water craft in which they are trying to cross the Channel, but even if they are landed in the UK, once they have had any medical issues cared for they should be put on a Ferry or Government owned vessel and returned to France.

What we need though are more vessels to patrol the Channel as the RN has realised, and the ten leased vessels will be able to safely bring those found on board and return them. Once there they will be under the care of the French authorities who can grant them citizenship if it is requested and then they will have all the support and well being being a French and EU citizen entails.

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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by wargame_insomniac »

Lord Jim wrote: 19 Feb 2022, 22:10 Oh dear all this started because I saw an article that said the Royal Navy was looking to LEASE up to ten patrol vessels to supplement the existing Birder Force Cutter when they take over responsibility for policing the Channel. This is simply because the RN believes there are not enough vessels to do the job and the vessels the Navy have have to high a hull/deck, making taking migrants on board difficult.

The second part was wondering why migrants seem so set on getting to the UK and why they do not want citizenship of the numerous European countries they have passed through. As for pushing back, I was not proposing pushing back their small boats/Dinghies, but rather taking them on board and then returning them to France. No one should have the right to illegally enter a country on economic grounds. None of those poor people who are victims of the People Smuggling Gangs have the right to claim asylum in the UK for they have already passed through countries which are safe to reach the Channel coast. They are entitled to be rescued from inappropriate water craft in which they are trying to cross the Channel, but even if they are landed in the UK, once they have had any medical issues cared for they should be put on a Ferry or Government owned vessel and returned to France.

What we need though are more vessels to patrol the Channel as the RN has realised, and the ten leased vessels will be able to safely bring those found on board and return them. Once there they will be under the care of the French authorities who can grant them citizenship if it is requested and then they will have all the support and well being being a French and EU citizen entails.
Agreed - I hope they get a good price on the lease of these smaller vessels. I presume they want something larger than the Archer or Cutlass Class patrol boats but far smaller that River B1's.

However as others have pointed out, if we were to buy some in the long term, then this could be an ideal build for Applodore, as it would be great if we can get enough RN work to keep all the remaining UK shipyards in business in between their commercial work. And the RN buying say half a dozen patrol vessels in the long term, with enough sea-worthiness to serve in the channel (and maybe North and Irish Seas), would hopefully, help Appledore get more orders either commercial or overseas.

I just think in these post-Brexit times we need more regular and more efficient policing and patrolling of our home waters. There is no way that 1*FRE Frigate and 3*River OPV's can properly cover all 11,000+ miles of coastline.

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Tempest414
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

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Lord Jim wrote: 19 Feb 2022, 22:10 Oh dear all this started because I saw an article that said the Royal Navy was looking to LEASE up to ten patrol vessels to supplement the existing Birder Force Cutter when they take over responsibility for policing the Channel. This is simply because the RN believes there are not enough vessels to do the job and the vessels the Navy have have to high a hull/deck, making taking migrants on board difficult.

The second part was wondering why migrants seem so set on getting to the UK and why they do not want citizenship of the numerous European countries they have passed through. As for pushing back, I was not proposing pushing back their small boats/Dinghies, but rather taking them on board and then returning them to France. No one should have the right to illegally enter a country on economic grounds. None of those poor people who are victims of the People Smuggling Gangs have the right to claim asylum in the UK for they have already passed through countries which are safe to reach the Channel coast. They are entitled to be rescued from inappropriate water craft in which they are trying to cross the Channel, but even if they are landed in the UK, once they have had any medical issues cared for they should be put on a Ferry or Government owned vessel and returned to France.

What we need though are more vessels to patrol the Channel as the RN has realised, and the ten leased vessels will be able to safely bring those found on board and return them. Once there they will be under the care of the French authorities who can grant them citizenship if it is requested and then they will have all the support and well being being a French and EU citizen entails.
There is hole's in your thinking and that is one France has its own problems in this area i.e people crossing the Med and two if we take this thinking all the way back then the likes of Greece and Turkey would have to give all these people safe shelter. As said if we want to slow this down we need to have these 10 new boats in the Med not the channel for every one person who gets to the UK 1000 have been given safe shelter or been returned in Europe and yes France picks people up and lets them go but so do all the rest how do you think they get to France in the first place France has much bigger problem than the UK

This blinkered view of the issue is a smoke screen put up by HMG to cover the piss poor job it has done in the rest of its tasks around Brexit

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Tempest414
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by Tempest414 »

May I also say if the RN is having to lease more boats where is the money and crew coming from surely this should be a Border force job they should be leasing 10 more boats and finding the crews and the money should come out of the Home Office not the MOD this is a civil matter not a Military one
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RichardIC
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by RichardIC »

Lord Jim wrote: 19 Feb 2022, 22:10 As for pushing back, I was not proposing pushing back their small boats/Dinghies, but rather taking them on board and then returning them to France. No one should have the right to illegally enter a country on economic grounds. None of those poor people who are victims of the People Smuggling Gangs have the right to claim asylum in the UK for they have already passed through countries which are safe to reach the Channel coast. They are entitled to be rescued from inappropriate water craft in which they are trying to cross the Channel, but even if they are landed in the UK, once they have had any medical issues cared for they should be put on a Ferry or Government owned vessel and returned to France.

What we need though are more vessels to patrol the Channel as the RN has realised, and the ten leased vessels will be able to safely bring those found on board and return them. Once there they will be under the care of the French authorities who can grant them citizenship if it is requested and then they will have all the support and well being being a French and EU citizen entails.
There's a slight issue with your cunning plan. You need France to agree to it.

How are Anglo-French relations currently?
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