Border Force Cutters.

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.
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Tempest414
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by Tempest414 »

For me after brexit we will need at leased 3 more 42 meter cutters to cover between the UK & Ireland

Caribbean
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by Caribbean »

Is that to stop people getting in, or getting out? :twisted:
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

It is not just us, 'anoraks', counting the cutters anymore. This article does it in great detail
https://news.sky.com/story/border-force ... s-11595795

but more specifically, once again (the previous occurrence was in an appearance in front of a Parliamentary Committee) exposes the clue-less-ness of
"Previously, immigration minister Caroline Nokes had signalled a Home Office reluctance to put further Border Force vessels in the Channel.

On a visit to Dover at the weekend, she claimed more craft could act as a possible "magnet" for further attempted crossings.

However, Mr Javid said there was a "balance to be struck in terms of patrolling our waters" after announcing the redeployment of the cutters.

"There is a human side to it in that if you do come across anyone in distress, in a difficult situation, of course our officers will act and do the right thing," he added.

But, sending a "strong signal" to those considering a crossing attempt, Mr Javid said: "We will do everything we can to make sure it is not a success.

[... for] people to think if they leave a safe country like France "
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

No wonder Mrs May called Mr Javid back, to be the "face" of the Gvmnt, after Ian Birrell painted this broader picture... so it would have been difficult :) for her to appear in person
- and she operates a Cameron-inspired scheme anyway: " bury the competitor, alive, @ the Home Office"

OK, the Birrell bit: "crass nationalism [...] As Home Secretary tore apart families from the Caribbean, introduced harsh policies to target poorer Britons with foreign spouses [...] and tried to turn GPs, landlords and businesses into Border Guards.

[...] doing her [level :) ] best to disrupt key sectors and public services with her red lines [...] brushing aside the reality that the bulk of migrants now [ever more so ;) and if you take the net figures, plenty more required :lol: ] come from outside the EU"
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Caribbean
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by Caribbean »

An interesting point (from the numbers POV), is that the original announcement (sometime in 2016, IIRC) was that there would be 8 x 20m RhIBs, introduced, with all of them being in service by 2018. I can only find references to six being in service at the moment. I wonder what happened to the other 2? Will they appear, or have they been "forgotten about"?
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

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Tempest414
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by Tempest414 »

as I said before a quick fix is to transfer 4 Archers over from the navy on loan

Pongoglo
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by Pongoglo »

I agree about tasking some of the p2000s. They are robust little vessels, are actually quite fast and can easily handle the Channel even at its roughest, in such conditions one would hope in any case any sane migrant would be unlikely to attempt to cross. Also their radar for this type of work is actually pretty good.

It often concerns me that their value is underated and that their 'peace time ' role in training URNU cadets detracts from the reason they are retained by Defence. all of them have a core RN crew who are more than capable of handling the boat without any cadets embarked, indeed this happens quite frequently when they have been deployed to Cyprus or Gib on force protection tasks.

Only point I would disagree with is that they should be 'transfered' on loan, presumably to the Border Force. Although not complex vessels it would still take time to train them to operate the boat (Ship?) and in any case the Border Force maritime branch are struggling with manning as it is. According to the Maill when the two cutters( Seeker and Protector) being redeployed from the Med do eventually get here they will have to have their crews supplemented by RN bods in order to guarantee 24/7 manning as it is.

Simplest solution would be for the P2000s regular RN crew to drive the boat and carry a couple of Border Force officers to effect an arrest, same way that we do with USCG on carribbean tasks? The Mail also reports that the RAF will provide 'surveillance' , what do we reckon, to my mind the Shadow R1s would be ideal perhaps?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... boats.html

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Pongoglo wrote:can easily handle the Channel even at its roughest, in such conditions one would hope in any case any sane migrant would be unlikely to attempt to cross. Also their radar for this type of work is actually pretty good.
... but they don't carry a RHIB.

In the older fleet (4 of the 5) each cutter carries a rigid hull inflatable boat (RHIB), which can carry 5 crew and a coxswain for boarding duties.

HMC Protector improves on this with a cradle for the launch, but is has proved difficult to find any material to show whether the cradle continues out with the RHIB flotation until it is all in the water or whether it is of this kind, making it smooth to ease the RHIB in (and not get the outboard ingesting water, before you even - try to! - start it)
- not such a problem with HMC RHIBs as they come with inboard engines (and waterjets)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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RichardIC
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by RichardIC »

Not part of today's Parliamentary speech but hidden in the bowels of the full Budget document:

• an additional £74 million capital funding over the SR21 period, as part of the National
Shipbuilding Strategy, to replace the Border Force fleet of five cutters and six coastal patrol
vessels. This maintains our maritime capability to tackle serious and organised crime, the
smuggling of illicit goods, and illegal migration.


https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... ssible.pdf

On page 100. Not clear if this is the entire budget or an uplift, the latter presumably.

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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by Repulse »

”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

Timmymagic
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by Timmymagic »

Don't think its the entire fleet. It's the 4 x 42m cutters (Seeker, Searcher, Valiant and Vigilant) and possibly the ex-Finnish Telka Class, HMC Protector.

Either way its not a spectacular sum of money...

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RichardIC
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by RichardIC »

Repulse wrote:RichardIC, looks total budget.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/rish ... 5.html?amp
There's nothing in the article that's compellingly definitive about that - let's face it there have been so many leaks around the budget there's no time to fact check and the journalist isn't a specialist.

I've never bought a cutter, just seems light for five plus six smaller patrol boats, but who knows.

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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by Repulse »

RichardIC wrote: I've never bought a cutter, just seems light for five plus six smaller patrol boats, but who knows.
I’m not an expert either but from a quick search looks to be about £5-10mn per hull
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

dmereifield
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by dmereifield »

Presumably UK builds?

Timmymagic
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by Timmymagic »

dmereifield wrote:Presumably UK builds?
It would be nice...Appledore?

But Damen seems to be the place to go for standardised builds at a decent turnaround.

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Poiuytrewq
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Timmymagic wrote:Appledore
Bread and butter for Appledore.

No reason why they cannot be British built at £7m each.

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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by dmereifield »

Can't see current HMG wanting to go with non UK builds, even though they're not "complex warships". These and 2 missiles boats for Ukraine would keep Appledore busy for a couple of years....

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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by Poiuytrewq »

dmereifield wrote:These and 2 missiles boats for Ukraine would keep Appledore busy for a couple of years....
Or possibly maximise productivity at Rosyth.

Harland & Wolff took on Appledore for a reason. It is hard to imagine what that reason could be if not this. It’s a perfect fit.

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RichardIC
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by RichardIC »

Repulse wrote:I’m not an expert either but from a quick search looks to be about £5-10mn per hull
Just seen the original four cutters cost £4 million each 20 years ago so that looks about right.

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Tempest414
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by Tempest414 »

with Babcocks building 2 of the 8 50 meter Protector class for Ukraine adding 4 or 5 more to a hot line could work

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RichardIC
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by RichardIC »

Certainly Appledore/H&W Devon don't have the workforce for even a sub £100 million contract.

This is the level of activity they're geared to at the moment.


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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by Timmymagic »

It's going to be interesting to see what design they choose to replace the 6 20m RHIBS that were bought from BP for the Channel. Whilst they're very seaworthy, having spent the previous 10 years in the North Sea as Rescue Boats on Oil Rig Support Vessels, I can imagine that the Border Force will want more speed, more carrying capacity and better arrangements for rescue given the current issues.

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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by Caribbean »

The SEA Class boats seem like a good design - do they manufacture a 20m variant?
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Tempest414 wrote:with Babcocks building 2 of the 8 50 meter Protector class for Ukraine adding 4 or 5 more to a hot line could work
Uhhm, not sure.

Specialist BF/Coast Guard cutters are designed to be "cheap". Cheap to build (because number is important) and cheap to operate (not so many man-power is available). If you take a look at many modern "patrol boat cutters", it has
- bridge aft, to improve crew comfort at rough sea
- simple RHIB handling system
- simple mast with simple navigation radar
- narrower or shallower hull to achieve ~25 knots speed with low power engine
- and small crew size.
All of these characteristics are different from that of a missile boat, which needs some robustness (withstand shocks and hits), needs large top weight margin (guns and missiles are not light-weight), and good sensor suits (top heavy masts).

Enjoy https://www.damen.com/catalogue/defence ... iew=models

Stan Patrol 4207 (= BF 42m-cutters) are still being built. A best seller design. Simple, cheap, and has good sea keeping (compared with its cost/size/crew-size).

Personally, I hope Cammel Laird bidding with Damen "Fast Crew Supplier 4208 - patrol", or "Stan Patrol 4207" again. Good rivals will come from Austal design, like "Cape-class" (but it is large aluminum hull. Which shipyard in UK is good at it?), Vard-7 045, (https://vardmarine.com/gallery/vard-7-045/), or some Lürssen design?

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Tempest414
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by Tempest414 »

I agree but babcocks boat will come from hot UK line as boat 3 meaning no learning and that might have some merit

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