Border Force Cutters.

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.
User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 3197
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
Has liked: 5 times
Been liked: 25 times
France

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by Tempest414 »

Scimitar54 wrote: 26 Nov 2021, 13:13 A child is not an “It”, what is wrong with using “him” and/or “her” ? Or have we become so over gender sensitive that we refer to people as inanimate objects?
Fucking really is this the best you could come with

Scimitar54
Senior Member
Posts: 1282
Joined: 13 Jul 2015, 05:10
Has liked: 16 times
Been liked: 20 times
United Kingdom

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by Scimitar54 »

Ouch ! Rattled are we ? Perhaps you should take more care with what you say in your posts.

It is nothing to do with “what I can come up with” ! What was in the rest of the post became irrelevant once your apparent disregard for human life was expressed.

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 3197
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
Has liked: 5 times
Been liked: 25 times
France

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by Tempest414 »

Scimitar54 wrote: 26 Nov 2021, 16:31 Ouch ! Rattled are we ? Perhaps you should take more care with what you say in your posts.

It is nothing to do with “what I can come up with” ! What was in the rest of the post became irrelevant once your apparent disregard for human life was expressed.
Rattled no mad maybe disregard for human life way off but if it makes you feel better I have edited my post

Scimitar54
Senior Member
Posts: 1282
Joined: 13 Jul 2015, 05:10
Has liked: 16 times
Been liked: 20 times
United Kingdom

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by Scimitar54 »

Thank-you.

wargame_insomniac
Member
Posts: 142
Joined: 20 Nov 2021, 19:12
Has liked: 82 times
Been liked: 4 times
United Kingdom

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by wargame_insomniac »

Caribbean wrote: 26 Nov 2021, 13:21 If we are actually talking about keeping people safe, rather than the politics, then there are a number of things that should be done, primarily to destroy the people traffickers business model - unfortunately this requires a great deal of co-operation from the French, who are locked in an odd mindset at the moment

Firstly, ensure that anyone attempting the Channel crossing is immediately returned to France - make it obvious that this route will not work and that they are wasting their time and money. This requires a complete change of attitude on the French side

Secondly, shut down the traffickers access to boats and engines - the French do seem to have started doing this in a half-hearted way.

Third - target the gangs - it is only in recent days that we have heard of any attempts by the French Police to close down the trafficking gangs (though they may well be doing it on the quiet)

None of this is particularly aimed at stopping migrants getting to the UK, it is primarily aimed at reducing the numbers attempting the crossing, There are many other things that could be done, such as changes to the law and improving formal routes of application, but that is more political than practical
100% agree - then can do as BB85 suggests above and I had mentioned previously, and then take in a CONTROLLED increase in legal migrants, prioritising those who had helped UK or had some specific ties to UK, and then taking in families, where hopefully the family ties will mean that less likely to become radicalised than allowing through a load of young men with no such ties.

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 3197
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
Has liked: 5 times
Been liked: 25 times
France

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by Tempest414 »

It really is not that hard all you need to do is allow applications to be made at the first UK embassy in Europe they come to they will be told to report to that embassy within 14 days for a interview they will then be given a reference number that they can follow on line. once we have this in place we make it clear that anyone coming into the UK illegally will sent back there country of origin without appeal just sending them back to France to try again is not good enough you have make the penalty truly fit

As for priority it should women and children first followed those deemed to be in danger of life

to end with all immigants who are allowed in should have 5 year passes extended as seen fit

RunningStrong
Member
Posts: 800
Joined: 06 May 2015, 20:52
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by RunningStrong »

Tempest414 wrote: 27 Nov 2021, 10:34 It really is not that hard all you need to do is allow applications to be made at the first UK embassy in Europe they come to they will be told to report to that embassy within 14 days for a interview they will then be given a reference number that they can follow on line. once we have this in place we make it clear that anyone coming into the UK illegally will sent back there country of origin without appeal just sending them back to France to try again is not good enough you have make the penalty truly fit

As for priority it should women and children first followed those deemed to be in danger of life

to end with all immigants who are allowed in should have 5 year passes extended as seen fit
I don't think that will work.

They may have an application with the UK, but what stops that country ejecting them? We can't tell another country to hold our applicants indefinitely.

In addition, they won't have much, if any right to work, education or healthcare in that country. And would likely face persecution in many parts of eastern Europe.

Caribbean
Senior Member
Posts: 2358
Joined: 09 Jan 2016, 19:08
Has liked: 1 time
Been liked: 5 times
United Kingdom

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by Caribbean »

I think that would be the Consulate that deals with that, not the Embassy (there again, in some countries the Embassy has a Consular section, so......), but otherwise you idea has merit. Unfortunately there are some difficulties.

Section 31 of the Refugee Convention does state that, in order to claim refugee status, you should "come to the the country in which you wish to claim asylum directly from the country where your life or freedom was threatened". France is not deemed to be such a state, nor are any of the EU states, so any application made within the EU could legally be refused under international law by the UK, on those grounds alone. More than likely, the only people that would qualify to enter the UK via that route would have qualified for a VISA anyway.

Once you have passed through a safe country, you become a migrant, not a refugee and different rules apply. Where a person comes directly to the UK, we have a legal obligation to assess their claim for asylum, but only if they make themselves known to, and make their claim for asylum "at the first available opportunity". If they attempt to slip into the UK undetected, then they automatically fail the "asylum" test.

Overriding all this are the rules on "refoulement". We cannot send them "back" to any country in which they would be at risk of persecution or death. Our only legal option is to process their claim for asylum and a) if valid, grant asylum, or b) if they have invalidated their asylum claim by not following the rules, return them to the last safe country that they came through (and that country's may choose to do the same - i.e. pass them back down the chain to the first safe country that they entered) or c) if that is not possible, hold them in detention until they choose to leave for another country. Of course, if they make an application for asylum that is refused, then they may be sent back to their country of origin, as they will have been deemed to not be at risk.

It is noticeable that an increasing number of those seeking to make the crossing have already been denied refugee status in France or other EU countries, but have not been repatriated by the relevant nations as "failed asylum seekers", simply released to go and try their luck elsewhere.
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 3197
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
Has liked: 5 times
Been liked: 25 times
France

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by Tempest414 »

there is no perfect way but by opening up applications outside the UK the process is started they can make as many application with other countries as they like as said once they have had there interview they could have a ref number so they can log on and add to there claim . As for asking other countries to look after them we would not be asking anyone to do anything if they are permitted in to the UK they would report to a embassy and be given flights in from where they are at that time

Also if they have been rejected and make a crossing attempt they have already been processed so turned around and sent back without appeal

SD67
Member
Posts: 382
Joined: 23 Jul 2019, 09:49
Has liked: 4 times
Been liked: 7 times
United Kingdom

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by SD67 »

Tempest414 wrote: 27 Nov 2021, 14:17 there is no perfect way but by opening up applications outside the UK the process is started they can make as many application with other countries as they like as said once they have had there interview they could have a ref number so they can log on and add to there claim . As for asking other countries to look after them we would not be asking anyone to do anything if they are permitted in to the UK they would report to a embassy and be given flights in from where they are at that time

Also if they have been rejected and make a crossing attempt they have already been processed so turned around and sent back without appeal
I support that approach. Proviso being that the applications are decided based on humanitarian need ie the vulnerable first not first come first served. Take the 20,000 most deserving in a given year.

But that’s not what the channel crisis is about. France has decided to export a problem to us. There is no other way this armada of ribs could be launched right under their noses

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 6428
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
Has liked: 14 times
Been liked: 54 times
United Kingdom

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by Lord Jim »

First things first, any immigrants intercepted anywhere in the Channel should be returned to France safely.

User avatar
RichardIC
Senior Member
Posts: 1231
Joined: 10 May 2015, 16:59
Has liked: 1 time
Been liked: 0
United Kingdom

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by RichardIC »

Lord Jim wrote: 30 Nov 2021, 00:47 First things first, any immigrants intercepted anywhere in the Channel should be returned to France safely.
If they’re rescued in French waters they should be taken to France because they’re in France. If they’re rescued in British waters they should be taken to Britain because they’re in Britain.

That shouldn’t be too hard to grasp.

Caribbean
Senior Member
Posts: 2358
Joined: 09 Jan 2016, 19:08
Has liked: 1 time
Been liked: 5 times
United Kingdom

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by Caribbean »

RichardIC wrote: 30 Nov 2021, 07:35
Lord Jim wrote: 30 Nov 2021, 00:47 First things first, any immigrants intercepted anywhere in the Channel should be returned to France safely.
If they’re rescued in French waters they should be taken to France because they’re in France. If they’re rescued in British waters they should be taken to Britain because they’re in Britain.

That shouldn’t be too hard to grasp.
Yes - we all know that

He's talking in terms of how to break the people trafficker's business model.

Do keep up
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

User avatar
RichardIC
Senior Member
Posts: 1231
Joined: 10 May 2015, 16:59
Has liked: 1 time
Been liked: 0
United Kingdom

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by RichardIC »

G White wrote: 08 Nov 2021, 21:44 Not building ships but work for Appledore
https://www.harland-wolff.com/news/harl ... with-rnli/
Caribbean wrote: 30 Nov 2021, 09:04
RichardIC wrote: 30 Nov 2021, 07:35
Lord Jim wrote: 30 Nov 2021, 00:47 First things first, any immigrants intercepted anywhere in the Channel should be returned to France safely.
If they’re rescued in French waters they should be taken to France because they’re in France. If they’re rescued in British waters they should be taken to Britain because they’re in Britain.

That shouldn’t be too hard to grasp.
Yes - we all know that

He's talking in terms of how to break the people trafficker's business model.

Do keep up
But those aren't the actual words he wrote.

And if you want to break the gang's business model you create a safe entry route so people don't have to enter the country illegally to claim asylum. After all the number wanting to come to the UK is relatively small compared to those wanting to go elsewhere.

SD67
Member
Posts: 382
Joined: 23 Jul 2019, 09:49
Has liked: 4 times
Been liked: 7 times
United Kingdom

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by SD67 »

RichardIC wrote: 30 Nov 2021, 07:35
Lord Jim wrote: 30 Nov 2021, 00:47 First things first, any immigrants intercepted anywhere in the Channel should be returned to France safely.
If they’re rescued in French waters they should be taken to France because they’re in France. If they’re rescued in British waters they should be taken to Britain because they’re in Britain.

That shouldn’t be too hard to grasp.
Utter nonsense. If you don't have a right to enter a country you are returned to your country of origin. I've seen people put straight back on the plane at Heathrow, Zurich and JFK because their visa had expired or didn't stack up. By your logic anyone or anything can establish themselves in the UK simply by touching the 12 mile limit. I guess the Russians can send a boat full of "refugees" with suspiciously short haircuts ....

User avatar
RichardIC
Senior Member
Posts: 1231
Joined: 10 May 2015, 16:59
Has liked: 1 time
Been liked: 0
United Kingdom

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by RichardIC »

SD67 wrote: 30 Nov 2021, 10:55
RichardIC wrote: 30 Nov 2021, 07:35
Lord Jim wrote: 30 Nov 2021, 00:47 First things first, any immigrants intercepted anywhere in the Channel should be returned to France safely.
If they’re rescued in French waters they should be taken to France because they’re in France. If they’re rescued in British waters they should be taken to Britain because they’re in Britain.

That shouldn’t be too hard to grasp.
Utter nonsense. If you don't have a right to enter a country you are returned to your country of origin. I've seen people put straight back on the plane at Heathrow, Zurich and JFK because their visa had expired or didn't stack up. By your logic anyone or anything can establish themselves in the UK simply by touching the 12 mile limit. I guess the Russians can send a boat full of "refugees" with suspiciously short haircuts ....
There's some really serious hardcore conflation going on there.

Caribbean
Senior Member
Posts: 2358
Joined: 09 Jan 2016, 19:08
Has liked: 1 time
Been liked: 5 times
United Kingdom

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by Caribbean »

RichardIC wrote: 30 Nov 2021, 10:20 But those aren't the actual words he wrote.
You took them out of context, then.
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 3197
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
Has liked: 5 times
Been liked: 25 times
France

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by Tempest414 »

The simple fact is once they are in the boats and in UK waters they need to be brought to the Uk dose this mean they have to stay no but the first and most important thing is safety

Now like or not the UK left the EU and at the same time the treaty meaning the French had to take them back this little detail was left out when we were told they would take back control when now in fact they have lost control

The French are in the same shit storm with boat arriving on the south coast the French people were told that numbers would be cut but have seen the opposite and with the elections coming up we are seeing big words and little action

the other way is to patrol right on the line and when you see a boat you claim it to be in danger due to no french ships being in the area you cross to save life's as you are now in French waters you return them to a French port

Scimitar54
Senior Member
Posts: 1282
Joined: 13 Jul 2015, 05:10
Has liked: 16 times
Been liked: 20 times
United Kingdom

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by Scimitar54 »

Overseas Processing Centre in a former Whaling Station in the S. Atlantic? That ought to discourage all but the most hardy.

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 3197
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
Has liked: 5 times
Been liked: 25 times
France

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by Tempest414 »

maybe you would prefer the Assension island as it has a good runway for large jets

Scimitar54
Senior Member
Posts: 1282
Joined: 13 Jul 2015, 05:10
Has liked: 16 times
Been liked: 20 times
United Kingdom

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by Scimitar54 »

No doubt inflatable trips would be out of the question from Ascension, as it has become notable for Shark Attacks, but it may also be a bit of a security risk.

User avatar
Dave
Member
Posts: 117
Joined: 02 May 2015, 22:24
Has liked: 2 times
Been liked: 6 times
United Kingdom

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by Dave »

SD67 wrote: 30 Nov 2021, 10:55
RichardIC wrote: 30 Nov 2021, 07:35
Lord Jim wrote: 30 Nov 2021, 00:47 First things first, any immigrants intercepted anywhere in the Channel should be returned to France safely.
If they’re rescued in French waters they should be taken to France because they’re in France. If they’re rescued in British waters they should be taken to Britain because they’re in Britain.

That shouldn’t be too hard to grasp.
Utter nonsense. If you don't have a right to enter a country you are returned to your country of origin. I've seen people put straight back on the plane at Heathrow, Zurich and JFK because their visa had expired or didn't stack up. By your logic anyone or anything can establish themselves in the UK simply by touching the 12 mile limit. I guess the Russians can send a boat full of "refugees" with suspiciously short haircuts ....
That would be a breach of international law, an asylum seeker cannot be returned to their country of origin (1951 UN Refugee Convention).

It is also allowed under international law for a refugee to pass through as many safe countries as they desire before making an asylum claim in a country.

https://fullfact.org/immigration/refuge ... e-country/

SD67
Member
Posts: 382
Joined: 23 Jul 2019, 09:49
Has liked: 4 times
Been liked: 7 times
United Kingdom

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by SD67 »

Dave wrote: 02 Dec 2021, 15:43
SD67 wrote: 30 Nov 2021, 10:55
RichardIC wrote: 30 Nov 2021, 07:35
Lord Jim wrote: 30 Nov 2021, 00:47 First things first, any immigrants intercepted anywhere in the Channel should be returned to France safely.
If they’re rescued in French waters they should be taken to France because they’re in France. If they’re rescued in British waters they should be taken to Britain because they’re in Britain.

That shouldn’t be too hard to grasp.
Utter nonsense. If you don't have a right to enter a country you are returned to your country of origin. I've seen people put straight back on the plane at Heathrow, Zurich and JFK because their visa had expired or didn't stack up. By your logic anyone or anything can establish themselves in the UK simply by touching the 12 mile limit. I guess the Russians can send a boat full of "refugees" with suspiciously short haircuts ....
That would be a breach of international law, an asylum seeker cannot be returned to their country of origin (1951 UN Refugee Convention).

It is also allowed under international law for a refugee to pass through as many safe countries as they desire before making an asylum claim in a country.

https://fullfact.org/immigration/refuge ... e-country/
France is not their country of origin, International maritime Law allows you to refuse entry to any vessel which is not exercising its right of innocent passage (which these are not - the nature of the cargo is irrelevant) and legally there is no such thing as an "Asylum Seeker". It's an invented term.

The status of "Refugee" is defined clearly by the 1951 Convention as someone who has fled a country due to a
“well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion”. They can call themselves whatever they want - but that's the definition. Unless they're fled persecution in France our obligation under International law is zero.

Caribbean
Senior Member
Posts: 2358
Joined: 09 Jan 2016, 19:08
Has liked: 1 time
Been liked: 5 times
United Kingdom

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by Caribbean »

Ironically, the passage in the Convention on refugees, requiring that they are only considered to be refugees if they are "coming directly from a territory where their life or freedom was threatened" was incorporated into the final text of the treaty at the demand of the French delegation, to address their concerns.
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

User avatar
RichardIC
Senior Member
Posts: 1231
Joined: 10 May 2015, 16:59
Has liked: 1 time
Been liked: 0
United Kingdom

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Post by RichardIC »

SD67 wrote: 02 Dec 2021, 16:25
France is not their country of origin, International maritime Law allows you to refuse entry to any vessel which is not exercising its right of innocent passage (which these are not - the nature of the cargo is irrelevant) and legally there is no such thing as an "Asylum Seeker". It's an invented term.

The status of "Refugee" is defined clearly by the 1951 Convention as someone who has fled a country due to a
“well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion”. They can call themselves whatever they want - but that's the definition. Unless they're fled persecution in France our obligation under International law is zero.
This is complete claptrap. It's twisting and turning in order to try and give a pseudo-legal veneer of respectability to the notion that you can turn back or "refuse entry" to people when they're in imminent peril.

Simple facts are that there's a legal requirement on the UK and other nations to provide adequate search and rescue and to go to the assistance of anyone, regardless of nationality, if they are in danger on the sea. The fact that they placed themselves in danger doesn't even vaguely come into the equation.

You cannot be in in a grossly overloaded dinghy in the middle of the busiest shipping lane in the world, subject to changeable current and weather, and not be in danger. It's a fait accompli. It tops any other consideration.

So keep your weasel words about "innocent passage" and whether they're asylum seekers, refugees or little blue aliens. It's claptrap.

And the fact you choose to describe people as "cargo" is pretty illuminating.

Post Reply