Royal Marines

News and discussion threads concerning defence personnel and their units.
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benny14
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Re: Royal Marines

Post by benny14 »

abc123 wrote:Well if you accept that a marine battalion ( if even that ) is now the maximum of UK amphibious capability, then yes...
Time to stop looking at the olden glory days. The new structure is fit for purpose.

Before the change, we had one battalion doing standing tasks, one training and one operational. It is easily argued that 42 Commando is now even more fit for purpose and is dedicated to standing tasks, while the other two battalions rotate between operational and training.

We still have two battalions and a third for reinforcement. The last time we deployed all three battalions was the Falklands war, and even then they deployed and fought alongside 16 Air Assault.

abc123
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Re: Royal Marines

Post by abc123 »

benny14 wrote:
abc123 wrote:Well if you accept that a marine battalion ( if even that ) is now the maximum of UK amphibious capability, then yes...
Time to stop looking at the olden glory days. The new structure is fit for purpose.

Before the change, we had one battalion doing standing tasks, one training and one operational. It is easily argued that 42 Commando is now even more fit for purpose and is dedicated to standing tasks, while the other two battalions rotate between operational and training.

We still have two battalions and a third for reinforcement. The last time we deployed all three battalions was the Falklands war, and even then they deployed and fought alongside 16 Air Assault.
IMHO, the standing task of the RM is amphibious maneuver, so 3 battalions to do that is minimum. If they wanted to have forces to do boarding and other stuff, they need to organise fourth Commando, not to sap one of rare still good parts of UKAF.

Two is simply NOT ENOUGH FOR ANYTHING.

Ceterum censeo, BA regiments that are part of Commando Brigade should be permanently and officially transfered to RM. Specialist training (artillery, engineers etc. ) issues can easily be sorted by contracting that to Army.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

benny14
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Re: Royal Marines

Post by benny14 »

abc123 wrote:IMHO, the standing task of the RM is amphibious maneuver, so 3 battalions to do that is minimum.
No. The operational battalion provides the lead commando group. The standing tasks battalion conducts defence engagement abroad, training and force protection. Which is what 42 Commando is now doing, along with several other specialist tasks. So no, three is not the minimum, we can generate an operational battalion out of two.
abc123 wrote:If they wanted to have forces to do boarding and other stuff, they need to organise fourth Commando, not to sap one of rare still good parts of UKAF.
The standing task Commando already did this.

Aethulwulf
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Re: Royal Marines

Post by Aethulwulf »

UK plans for amphibious assault are centred around three different possible sized forces:

1. Lead Commando Landing Force
A lead Cdo (e.g 40 Cdo or 45 Cdo) plus attachments
A Logistics Task Group from Commando Logistics Regiment
1 battery plus coord centre from 29 Cdo RA
1 eng sqn plus planning cell from 24 Cdo RE
Approx Totals: 1200 personnel & 500 vehicles

2. Lead Commando Group (LCG)
As above but with full support personnel.
Approx Totals: 1900 personnel & 800 vehicles

3. LCG Plus (or Cdo Brigade Minus)
LCG plus 2nd Cdo unit (e.g. 40 Cdo & 45 Cdo), and extra artillery and engineering support
Approx Totals: 2700 Personnel & 1200 vehicles

At the moment, a full Cdo Brigade using three Cdo units does not feature in UK planning.

1 and 2 are based on a single battlegroup. 3 is based on 2 battlegroups. Most people are surprised by the number of personnel and vehicles that even a single battlegroup requires.

In addition to the above land forces, they will also require an extra 500 personnel (approx) for the Helicopter force and 100 personnel for crewing the Landing Craft.

abc123
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Re: Royal Marines

Post by abc123 »

benny14 wrote: So no, three is not the minimum, we can generate an operational battalion out of two.
You can, but not as easy as out of three. That's the same thing like saying that the RN can do with just 8 frigates- yes, but not like with 13. Or with 7 submarines instead of 12 etc. And then you have 10 months deployments and similar things- and then you wonder why there's no enough fools to become sailors, because who needs to see their family?
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

benny14
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Re: Royal Marines

Post by benny14 »

abc123 wrote:You can, but not as easy as out of three. That's the same thing like saying that the RN can do with just 8 frigates- yes, but not like with 13. Or with 7 submarines instead of 12 etc. And then you have 10 months deployments and similar things- and then you wonder why there's no enough fools to become sailors, because who needs to see their family?
As Aethulwulf just pointed out, a three Commando brigade does not feature in UK planning. The new structure changes nothing other than to dedicate a Commando to standing tasks.

abc123
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Re: Royal Marines

Post by abc123 »

benny14 wrote:
abc123 wrote:You can, but not as easy as out of three. That's the same thing like saying that the RN can do with just 8 frigates- yes, but not like with 13. Or with 7 submarines instead of 12 etc. And then you have 10 months deployments and similar things- and then you wonder why there's no enough fools to become sailors, because who needs to see their family?
As Aethulwulf just pointed out, a three Commando brigade does not feature in UK planning. The new structure changes nothing other than to dedicate a Commando to standing tasks.

Well of course that it isn't in UK planning, same like carrier operations aren't in Argentinian planning, since they have no carrier.
Same thing with UK and RN. No Ocean, QE still not operational, one Bay sold, one in Gulf permanently, 2 combat Commandos- of course it isn't in UK planning.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

Aethulwulf
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Re: Royal Marines

Post by Aethulwulf »

abc123 wrote:
benny14 wrote:
abc123 wrote:You can, but not as easy as out of three. That's the same thing like saying that the RN can do with just 8 frigates- yes, but not like with 13. Or with 7 submarines instead of 12 etc. And then you have 10 months deployments and similar things- and then you wonder why there's no enough fools to become sailors, because who needs to see their family?
As Aethulwulf just pointed out, a three Commando brigade does not feature in UK planning. The new structure changes nothing other than to dedicate a Commando to standing tasks.

Well of course that it isn't in UK planning, same like carrier operations aren't in Argentinian planning, since they have no carrier.
Same thing with UK and RN. No Ocean, QE still not operational, one Bay sold, one in Gulf permanently, 2 combat Commandos- of course it isn't in UK planning.
All you are saying is British Forces are not as large as they were 10 years ago.

True, but hardly an earth shattering revelation. The downsizing to no longer deploying 3 Cdo battlegroup Brigade occurred in 2010.

Lord Jim
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Re: Royal Marines

Post by Lord Jim »

Even when it was part of planning to ship the entirety of 3 Commando Brigade, it was in reality to ship them to NATOs northern flank, land then and for them to then operate so a Infantry formation including supporting formations. Its advantage was it was able to manoeuvre effectively using its Helicopter assets and all terrain vehicles. It was not to conduct Brigade sized amphibious landings.

abc123
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Re: Royal Marines

Post by abc123 »

I'm not talking about landing of whole Commando Brigade ( that was allways a wartime stuff, a la Falklands, with STUFT and other wartime-appropriate things ). I am talking about force generation, where 3 active Commandos are much better to give one battalion in high readyness than two. And that's a fact. Other tasks like boarding should be made by specialised units, same thing for Force Protection.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

Lord Jim
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Re: Royal Marines

Post by Lord Jim »

I can see what you are saying in that it is easier to have one out of three battalions kept at high readiness than when you only have two. But I suppose those who join the RM expect excitement so alternating between the two battalions will have to do. Unfortunately the other will still have to under go high temp training etc. so not really period stood down. I suppose they could share the load with 16 Air Assault as far as rapid deployment duties so may they should work even closer than they do now.

benny14
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Re: Royal Marines

Post by benny14 »

Lord Jim wrote:I can see what you are saying in that it is easier to have one out of three battalions kept at high readiness than when you only have two. But I suppose those who join the RM expect excitement so alternating between the two battalions will have to do. Unfortunately the other will still have to under go high temp training etc. so not really period stood down. I suppose they could share the load with 16 Air Assault as far as rapid deployment duties so may they should work even closer than they do now.
They worked on a rotation of three, going between active/training/standing tasks. The standing tasks battalion was and is just as, if not more active than the other two battalions. 42 Commando is now dedicated to the latter task, the other two will work on a rotation of two between active/training. The workload changes very little, not seeing a major issue here. Readiness has not changed and the structure is now more fit for purpose.

16 AA operates with two battalions. Similar to 3 Cdo now with 2 front line and one specialist battalion. Might be worth looking at assigning a light infantry battalion to 3 Cdo, as the 1 RGR are with 16 AA.

abc123
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Re: Royal Marines

Post by abc123 »

benny14 wrote:
Lord Jim wrote:I can see what you are saying in that it is easier to have one out of three battalions kept at high readiness than when you only have two. But I suppose those who join the RM expect excitement so alternating between the two battalions will have to do. Unfortunately the other will still have to under go high temp training etc. so not really period stood down. I suppose they could share the load with 16 Air Assault as far as rapid deployment duties so may they should work even closer than they do now.
They worked on a rotation of three, going between active/training/standing tasks. The standing tasks battalion was and is just as, if not more active than the other two battalions. 42 Commando is now dedicated to the latter task, the other two will work on a rotation of two between active/training. The workload changes very little, not seeing a major issue here. Readiness has not changed and the structure is now more fit for purpose.

16 AA operates with two battalions. Similar to 3 Cdo now with 2 front line and one specialist battalion. Might be worth looking at assigning a light infantry battalion to 3 Cdo, as the 1 RGR are with 16 AA.
What I'm saying is that both Commando and 16AA need to be augmented by another battalion, if you want to have a proper cycle of force generation. One ready, one in training is a wartime posture, not for peace and extended periods.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

benny14
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Re: Royal Marines

Post by benny14 »

abc123 wrote:One ready, one in training is a wartime posture, not for peace and extended periods.
And my point is that is how it has been for a long time with 3 Cdo. They seem to be getting along fine with it. RMs love been active.

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Re: Royal Marines

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SKB
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Re: Royal Marines

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Lord Jim
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Re: Royal Marines

Post by Lord Jim »

Well from that video, 42 Commando have basically joined the SF order of battle with their skills sets and equipment, doing the same job the USN uses SEAL teams for (With the exception of Six). It does however make the idea of landing and operating 3 Commando Brigade as a formation a non starter and really pushes the idea of operating as smaller company sized raiding units to the fore or a Commando as vanguard formation to secure a point of entry for follow on Army units. Having 41 Commando organised as it is though is a very good development though.

benny14
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Re: Royal Marines

Post by benny14 »

Lord Jim wrote:It does however make the idea of landing and operating 3 Commando Brigade as a formation a non starter and really pushes the idea of operating as smaller company sized raiding units to the fore or a Commando as vanguard formation to secure a point of entry for follow on Army units.
3 Commando has operated with two commandos for many years, including the Iraq war. The main difference now is that 42 Commando is dedicated, rather than the tasks been rotated between commandos.

Aethulwulf
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Re: Royal Marines

Post by Aethulwulf »

Lord Jim wrote:Well from that video, 42 Commando have basically joined the SF order of battle with their skills sets and equipment, doing the same job the USN uses SEAL teams for (With the exception of Six). It does however make the idea of landing and operating 3 Commando Brigade as a formation a non starter and really pushes the idea of operating as smaller company sized raiding units to the fore or a Commando as vanguard formation to secure a point of entry for follow on Army units. Having 41 Commando organised as it is though is a very good development though.
In the video, it states that forward deployed teams are prepared for level 2 non-compliant boardings. This draws a clear distinction between the RM capability, and the higher level of non-compliant boardings that are still an SF task.

Little J
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Re: Royal Marines

Post by Little J »

Are you trying to say that they are not as special as they think they are? :angel:

Aethulwulf
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Re: Royal Marines

Post by Aethulwulf »

Little J wrote:Are you trying to say that they are not as special as they think they are? :angel:
No. I'm saying that they are not as special as Lord Jim thinks they are.

I'm sure the RM are fully aware of the different role they have to SF.

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Re: Royal Marines

Post by seaspear »

I have never commented on this thread but my curiosity in it came from my fathers time in the R.M during WW2 and his stories and the orders that they had which they would not get now , even the experiences during the training of U.S troops pre Normandy landings which he criticised " that they just stopped after landing to brew up instead of going inland" was this thinking the cause of the difficulties experienced later ? tougher times for sure.

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Re: Royal Marines

Post by J. Tattersall »

I haven't seen anything in the press about project Sykes since 42 Commando's new role was announced last year, so I don't know whether it's complete or awaiting the outcome of the MDP review.

I don't agree though that 42 Cdo's re-rolling necessarily makes RM brigade level ops a thing of the past. Remember that 3 Cdo bde operated in Telic 1 (Al Faw peninsula) as a two manoeuvre unit formation. My guess is that for bde level war fighting they'd try and generate some sort of manoeuvre support force to mitigate only having 40 and 45 Commandos.

What will be interesting is whether by now only having to support two manoeuvre units, is whether manpower savings could be made in the support areas of the bde (e.g. logistics) and reinvested in higher priority areas for the corps? .....and indeed what might these higher priorities be; beefing up the Cdo units, ISR, artillery etc. ?

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Royal Marines

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

J. Tattersall wrote: I don't agree though that 42 Cdo's re-rolling necessarily makes RM brigade level ops a thing of the past.
The boarding tasks and providing ships' protection teams have been well publicised, but only now noticed that two companies have been merged within 42 (Maritime Ops) Cdo to provide

"Kilo Company (formerly Stand-Off Company) and Lima Company (formerly Close Combat Company), now Joint Personnel Recovery company"
on QEC carrier(s)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Royal Marines

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(Forces TV) 11 Dec 2018
"I have followed the exploits of the Royal Marines speed marching team over six years," writes military filmmaker Chris Terrill. "Royal Marines have determination and doggedness bred in their bones but I never cease to be amazed at the pain thresholds they are able to cross, both physically and mentally."
More: https://www.forces.net/to-hell-and-back

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