Australian Defence Force

[R686]

[*]

More Arafura-class progress.

It’s an interesting design but does Australia really need 14 of these?

Yes, if anything the RAN need more than that also ice strengthened for southern ocean patrolling

If you look at the history the RAN had 20 Attack class PB which were replaced by 14 Fremantle Class(30 planned) then again by the Armidale’s penny pinching reduced the numbers over time

[Ian Hall]

Interesting.

Adding firepower to the Type 26 Frigate

https://www.navylookout.com/adding-fire ... 6-frigate/

[shark bait]

I didn't know BAE has increased the beam for the Australians. Turns out is not jut the UK MOD that buys standard stuff and the buggers with it!

[mrclark303]

I didn't know BAE has increased the beam for the Australians. Turns out is not jut the UK MOD that buys standard stuff and the buggers with it!

Seems like a bad idea, keep the propulsion and hull form the same, start buggering with altering the dimensions and it starts to unravel....

[tomuk]

More Arafura-class progress.

It’s an interesting design but does Australia really need 14 of these?

Yes, if anything the RAN need more than that also ice strengthened for southern ocean patrolling

If you look at the history the RAN had 20 Attack class PB which were replaced by 14 Fremantle Class(30 planned) then again by the Armidale’s penny pinching reduced the numbers over time

I think the problem is the RAN need OPVs, Frigates, Destroyers and Subs all at the same time.

Just like sentiment seems against the Hunters for lack of VLS the Arafuras aren't seen as spikey enough either.

[R686]

More Arafura-class progress.

It’s an interesting design but does Australia really need 14 of these?

Yes, if anything the RAN need more than that also ice strengthened for southern ocean patrolling

If you look at the history the RAN had 20 Attack class PB which were replaced by 14 Fremantle Class(30 planned) then again by the Armidale’s penny pinching reduced the numbers over time

I think the problem is the RAN need OPVs, Frigates, Destroyers and Subs all at the same time.

Just like sentiment seems against the Hunters for lack of VLS the Arafuras aren't seen as spikey enough either.

Too much boom bust cycles in our political process, which is the same in the UK BTW

[tomuk]

More Arafura-class progress.

It’s an interesting design but does Australia really need 14 of these?

Yes, if anything the RAN need more than that also ice strengthened for southern ocean patrolling

If you look at the history the RAN had 20 Attack class PB which were replaced by 14 Fremantle Class(30 planned) then again by the Armidale’s penny pinching reduced the numbers over time

I think the problem is the RAN need OPVs, Frigates, Destroyers and Subs all at the same time.

Just like sentiment seems against the Hunters for lack of VLS the Arafuras aren't seen as spikey enough either.

Too much boom bust cycles in our political process, which is the same in the UK BTW

Not sure when the boom was in the UK, WWII possibly.

[R686]

More Arafura-class progress.

It’s an interesting design but does Australia really need 14 of these?

Yes, if anything the RAN need more than that also ice strengthened for southern ocean patrolling

If you look at the history the RAN had 20 Attack class PB which were replaced by 14 Fremantle Class(30 planned) then again by the Armidale’s penny pinching reduced the numbers over time

I think the problem is the RAN need OPVs, Frigates, Destroyers and Subs all at the same time.

Just like sentiment seems against the Hunters for lack of VLS the Arafuras aren't seen as spikey enough either.

Too much boom bust cycles in our political process, which is the same in the UK BTW

Not sure when the boom was in the UK, WWII possibly.

Most likely the last time the UK was building continuously. But it also happens that the UK has not built in those numbers for quite sometime with a lot of naval shipbuilding yard closure and numbers of ships not build to plan

So the boom bust cycle has indeed been going on not as bad as in Australia case but it is there

What impacts are the Government’s Shipbuilding Strategy and National Shipbuilding Office having on the shipbuilding industry in Scotland?

Even just ten years ago shipbuilding in Scotland was described as a ‘feast and famine’ industry with effectively one or two shipyards hiring large numbers of new staff to work on a small number of new ships. This would then be followed by the ‘famine’ stage, with layoffs and uncertainty over whether-or-not there will be any future orders and whether-or-not the yard would have to close

https://committees.parliament.uk/writte ... tml/#_ftn1

[abc123]

More Arafura-class progress.

What exactly is the problem with Arafura class?

[Poiuytrewq]

What exactly is the problem with Arafura class?

I don’t think there is any specific problem with Arafura.

IMO it’s the fleet balance that looks suspect.

Nobody appears to be able to explain the rationale behind the chosen fleet balance apart from blaming politicians for making bad decisions.

AUKUS has changed the landscape somewhat but cancelling programs appears to becoming a bit of a habit which will ultimately just lead to more instability and more bad decisions based around knee jerk reactions.

Given the scale of the Australian EEZ the Arafura procurement makes sense but the proposed Frigate/Destroyer numbers looks totally inadequate to provide sufficient presence over the vast area that is strategically significant.

Therefore does it make to continue with the full Arafura class procurement or would it make sense to cap the class at 8 and then build another 6 or 8 more capable OPVs with a greater range/endurance/helo etc to push out further into the Indo Pacific and relieve some of the pressure from the escorts.

It may be a sticking plaster solution but it would effectively double the RANs presence in the crucial areas.

[Mercator]

The OPV's entire purpose is constabulary. Preventing illegal immigration and providing fisheries protection. That's why it wasn't a patrol boat or a Corvette. its entire armament consists of a planned 40 mm weapon but it will initially sail with a 25 mm weapon instead.

All that was by design. The RAN loves that junior officers and sailors can gain a lot of seamanship experience on these vessels (lots of senior captains had their first command on a patrol boat), and this is largely why we do not have a Coast Guard that combines Border Force customs vessels and these naval equivalents. If we had a Coast Guard, these sailors would spend their whole career there and be lost to the RAN. But they sail every day to keep other people's civilian boats out of our waters and do pretty much nothing else. In fact they are hard pressed to keep up with demand for this sort of constabulary task. We have OPVs instead of more patrol boats only because they want better seakeeping performance and greater endurance, but the task is not naval.

The consequences of failing to provide a near perfect protection against illegal immigration vessels are severe. The ALP was kept out of government for decades because they were perceived to be soft on illegal immigration. If the nightly news was to broadcast a bunch of illegal immigrants stepping off a boat and running amok somewhere on our coastline, it's very likely the current ALP would suffer election consequences. The government is in trouble right now just from immigration detainees getting out of detention as a consequence of a High Court decision. A boat turning up would cripple them.

The OPVs and the other existing patrol boats are indispensable and should their numbers fall and they fail in their mission, governments could fall. Consequently, it would be very surprising to see a reduction in the vessels assigned to this task in order to pursue some other naval utility. Heck, 10 years ago we had frigates doing this as well when the people smugglers were sending a couple of boats a week from Indonesia. The only threat to the OPV that I can see would be some sort of production issue that makes a return to more Cape Class patrol boats more cost-effective. A more expensive design would be just as likely to trigger that sort of drama, I think. The Cape class is still in production right now, so it would be an easy thing to switch over to more of them. The reasons the Department chose a cut-price OPV only five years ago have not disappeared

[tomuk]

The only threat to the OPV that I can see would be some sort of production issue that makes a return to more Cape Class patrol boats more cost-effective. A more expensive design would be just as likely to trigger that sort of drama, I think. The Cape class is still in production right now, so it would be an easy thing to switch over to more of them. The reasons the Department chose a cut-price OPV only five years ago have not disappeared

https://www.navalnews.com/event-news/in ... f-concern/

As of October 2023, nearly two years after launch NUSHIP Arafura not yet commenced sea trials and it remains unclear when it will do so, with some elements in Defence seeing it as ill-equipped for the circumstances facing Australia. In an effort to address these concerns, Naval News understands, the RAN is examining options for up-arming the vessels.

In May 2020, before NUSHIP Arafura was launched, the Australian Government announced that it had awarded Austal a contract for six Evolved Cape Class Patrol Boats in a bid to “reduce the risk” of the transition from Armidale to Arafura. In 2022 an additional two Evolved Cape Class boats were ordered, bringing the total to eight.

[tomuk]

More Arafura-class progress.

It’s an interesting design but does Australia really need 14 of these?

Yes, if anything the RAN need more than that also ice strengthened for southern ocean patrolling

If you look at the history the RAN had 20 Attack class PB which were replaced by 14 Fremantle Class(30 planned) then again by the Armidale’s penny pinching reduced the numbers over time

I think the problem is the RAN need OPVs, Frigates, Destroyers and Subs all at the same time.

Just like sentiment seems against the Hunters for lack of VLS the Arafuras aren't seen as spikey enough either.

Too much boom bust cycles in our political process, which is the same in the UK BTW

Not sure when the boom was in the UK, WWII possibly.

Most likely the last time the UK was building continuously. But it also happens that the UK has not built in those numbers for quite sometime with a lot of naval shipbuilding yard closure and numbers of ships not build to plan

So the boom bust cycle has indeed been going on not as bad as in Australia case but it is there

What impacts are the Government’s Shipbuilding Strategy and National Shipbuilding Office having on the shipbuilding industry in Scotland?

Even just ten years ago shipbuilding in Scotland was described as a ‘feast and famine’ industry with effectively one or two shipyards hiring large numbers of new staff to work on a small number of new ships. This would then be followed by the ‘famine’ stage, with layoffs and uncertainty over whether-or-not there will be any future orders and whether-or-not the yard would have to close

https://committees.parliament.uk/writte ... tml/#_ftn1

The problem with whole feast and famine allegory is that as time as gone on the feast has got smaller and smaller and the length of famine increased. It is starvation with a couple of microwave dinners for one thrown in.

[Poiuytrewq]

I accept what you have written but given the service lifespan of the current patrol vessels is replacing them really the top priority for Australia?

Compared to the alternative of butchering Frigate programs which are also underway?

If the current patrol vessels could carry on for another decade the industrial capacity could be reassigned to the RAN to close the wider patrol gaps in the interim.

Does the overall plan and fleet balance make sense from an Australian perspective?

[Mercator]

I accept what you have written but given the service lifespan of the current patrol vessels is replacing them really the top priority for Australia?

Compared to the alternative of butchering Frigate programs which are also underway?

If the current patrol vessels could carry on for another decade the industrial capacity could be reassigned to the RAN to close the wider patrol gaps in the interim.

Does the overall plan and fleet balance make sense from an Australian perspective?

Well, BAE have the frigate program all to themselves and they were only building the first two OPVs. They were actually meant to be a gap filler between the Hobart class and the Hunter class to keep the shipyard in work. So rather than stealing industrial capacity from the frigate program, the OPV build was meant to help it.

The rest of the OPV program will be completed at Henderson in Western Australia. Along with Medium and Large landing craft programs, the aim is to build up more naval shipbuilding capacity at Henderson. So far the largest thing they have constructed in WA are the ferries they occasionally build at Austal. Hopefully that will make the Western Australian workforce just as capable as the Adelaide shipbuilders, but you'd have to give it a decade or so. A frigate program, or even assisting in the frigate program, is probably a bit much right now. This is why Navantia was able to make an attractive pitch to the Australian government about building more Hobart class destroyers. They realised that there was no more industrial capacity for frigates/destroyers in Australia, so building in Spain became an option.

Realistically, we have two choices for more frigates or destroyers for the RAN. Whatever BAE can build in Australia and whatever Navantia might come up with (providing some blocks for assembly in Australia is also a possibility). Fiddling with the OPV program in Western Australia doesn't really give you much. Different workforce capabilities really.

[new guy]

[R686]

Indeed,

It’s still only one boat on a op but it arrives on station quicker submerged all the way and can stay on station for double the time

I remember see a map on potential RAN submarine operations detailing how each could stay at a given location in both time to arrive and stay. If I recall it was double what Collins can achieve

Just trying to remember where I saw it. It was a eye opener

[wargame_insomniac]

"ASC Shipbuilding (a BAE Systems Australia company) has contracted GEIE EUROTORP for the installation of the MU90 Torpedo Launch System (TLS) on board the first batch of three Hunter class frigates for the Royal Australian Navy (RAN)."

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... -frigates/

A pic taken onboard the Japanese Mogami frigate, noticeable that the T26 has zero capability to launch LWT from ship if for any reason Merlin is out of commission.

[tomuk]

"ASC Shipbuilding (a BAE Systems Australia company) has contracted GEIE EUROTORP for the installation of the MU90 Torpedo Launch System (TLS) on board the first batch of three Hunter class frigates for the Royal Australian Navy (RAN)."

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... -frigates/

A pic taken onboard the Japanese Mogami frigate, noticeable that the T26 has zero capability to launch LWT from ship if for any reason Merlin is out of commission.

Sigh. Another one of your supposed news posts hiding a dig at the RN.
There are various options for torpedoes and T26, the existing MLTS on T23 is being upgraded and space is reserved on T26 for it, ASROC or similar in the Mk41, ASW rounds for the Mk45 are being developed and there are always UAVs.

[NickC]

"ASC Shipbuilding (a BAE Systems Australia company) has contracted GEIE EUROTORP for the installation of the MU90 Torpedo Launch System (TLS) on board the first batch of three Hunter class frigates for the Royal Australian Navy (RAN)."

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... -frigates/

A pic taken onboard the Japanese Mogami frigate, noticeable that the T26 has zero capability to launch LWT from ship if for any reason Merlin is out of commission.

Sigh. Another one of your supposed news posts hiding a dig at the RN.
There are various options for torpedoes and T26, the existing MLTS on T23 is being upgraded and space is reserved on T26 for it, ASROC or similar in the Mk41, ASW rounds for the Mk45 are being developed and there are always UAVs.

The difference is the Australian and Japanese Navies are actually installing the actual hardware on their frigates, whereas you say RN keeping T26 "space" for a possible future installation of MLTS from the the T23, the other options you quote would also be applicable to the Australian and Japanese frigates.

[R686]

"ASC Shipbuilding (a BAE Systems Australia company) has contracted GEIE EUROTORP for the installation of the MU90 Torpedo Launch System (TLS) on board the first batch of three Hunter class frigates for the Royal Australian Navy (RAN)."

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... -frigates/

A pic taken onboard the Japanese Mogami frigate, noticeable that the T26 has zero capability to launch LWT from ship if for any reason Merlin is out of commission.

Sigh. Another one of your supposed news posts hiding a dig at the RN.
There are various options for torpedoes and T26, the existing MLTS on T23 is being upgraded and space is reserved on T26 for it, ASROC or similar in the Mk41, ASW rounds for the Mk45 are being developed and there are always UAVs.

The difference is the Australian and Japanese Navies are actually installing the actual hardware on their frigates, whereas you say RN keeping T26 "space" for a possible future installation of MLTS from the the T23, the other options you quote would also be applicable to the Australian and Japanese frigates.

FFBNW (“fitted for but not with" )

[LighthorseDongda]

Question about T50 turret mounted on Australian M113A1

is it powered by electricity or bare hands?

many thanks to anyone can give me the answer❤

[Mercator]

[R686]

Least it’s something Marles can’t cancel

ADF going backwards under ALP

[Mercator]

Under the sweeping overhaul, Australia's current fleet of combat-ready warships would rise from 11 to 26, consisting of nine "Tier 1" frigates and destroyers and 11 smaller general-purpose frigates, as well as six optionally crewed vessels which will form a "Tier 2" force.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-02-20/ ... nt=twitter