Australian Defence Force

News and discussion threads on defence in other parts of the world.
SouthernOne
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Re: Australian Defence Force

Post by SouthernOne »

tomuk wrote: 09 Mar 2023, 13:08 San Diego is homeport to 5 Los Angeles Class boats that were pencilled in for withdrawal from 2026.
It's the main port of the US Pacific Fleet. Given this meeting is being hosted by the US president, that's two significant signals......

TheLoneRanger
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Re: Australian Defence Force

Post by TheLoneRanger »

tomuk wrote: 09 Mar 2023, 13:08 San Diego is homeport to 5 Los Angeles Class boats that were pencilled in for withdrawal from 2026.
Interesting - i do think the path will be to lease 5 for australia to learn operations and then build a derivative of the Astute that both the RN and Australia will operate with the UK taking care of the reactors and decomissioning.

inch
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Re: Australian Defence Force

Post by inch »

Well if Australia leases American subs ok but if actually buy and possibly build parts of Virginia class and assemble them after building the infrastructure to make them in Australia,and repair American Virginia subs ,a SSNR derivative for Australia will never be built,a total utter pipedream that one , all that building and expense, folks in Australia will shout at government why we build 2 class of subs and setting up 2 different production lines ,it will never fly ,and no matter what agreement they say now with UK it ain't going to happen,and think USA canny here and they know it won't in reality,one Virginia all

inch
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Re: Australian Defence Force

Post by inch »

Soz ,one Virginia all 8 Virginia class,and saying SSNR derivative sometime in the very distant future ,lol yeah right ,but it's ok Virginia will be a great submarine for Australia needs, perfect tbh 👍,

Mercator
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Re: Australian Defence Force

Post by Mercator »

This seems to be the consensus view in Oz in print and for the most part on twitter: 3-5 Virginia's in the interim (probably early builds) and then building SSN(R) with the UK some time thereafter.

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SouthernOne
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Re: Australian Defence Force

Post by SouthernOne »

It's been a long time since I've seen the rumour mill churn out such rapidly evolving, or changing stories.....

Mercator
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Re: Australian Defence Force

Post by Mercator »

SouthernOne wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 03:52 It's been a long time since I've seen the rumour mill churn out such rapidly evolving, or changing stories.....
there is some internal coherency though, see below:



Most of the initial scoops have these elements it's just that the initial countries to leak, the UK and the US, talked up their own efforts first. Obviously the final deal has to benefit everyone, and these elements seem to do that.

SW1
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Re: Australian Defence Force

Post by SW1 »

Hopefully this means the RN will divert cash from the surface fleet to expand and accelerate the submarine fleet with the ssnr and take advantage of this deal.

Jake1992
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Re: Australian Defence Force

Post by Jake1992 »

Mercator wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 07:53
SouthernOne wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 03:52 It's been a long time since I've seen the rumour mill churn out such rapidly evolving, or changing stories.....
there is some internal coherency though, see below:



Most of the initial scoops have these elements it's just that the initial countries to leak, the UK and the US, talked up their own efforts first. Obviously the final deal has to benefit everyone, and these elements seem to do that.
How is designing new subs in the late 30s any good for the UK, even delivery of first build is pushing it since the first Astue is meant to reach end of life by early 30s.
What are we going to do about that gap is the UK just going to see it’s sub numbers fall to no more than a couple or go the route of very expensive refuelling to add those 5-10 years of life.
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SW1
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Re: Australian Defence Force

Post by SW1 »

Jake1992 wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 08:21
Mercator wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 07:53
SouthernOne wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 03:52 It's been a long time since I've seen the rumour mill churn out such rapidly evolving, or changing stories.....
there is some internal coherency though, see below:



Most of the initial scoops have these elements it's just that the initial countries to leak, the UK and the US, talked up their own efforts first. Obviously the final deal has to benefit everyone, and these elements seem to do that.
How is designing new subs in the late 30s any good for the UK, even delivery of first build is pushing it since the first Astue is meant to reach end of life by early 30s.
What are we going to do about that gap is the UK just going to see it’s sub numbers fall to no more than a couple or go the route of very expensive refuelling to add those 5-10 years of life.
SSNR design work has already started. The late 2030s is probably when the first boat would reach Australia.

inch
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Re: Australian Defence Force

Post by inch »

The elephant in the room being once Australia got potentially 5 Virginia, Australia never going to change for SSNR ,I'm really surprised alot more commentary hasn't been made of this fact if this is the fact .mind you I quess people will keep their powder dry untill all the facts are released on Monday I quess ,then think people will realise this and sunak sold a pipedream with no benefit for UK at all really, except maybe a few extra Australian crew on astute subs

TheLoneRanger
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Re: Australian Defence Force

Post by TheLoneRanger »

If the supplied virginia's are the initial blocks, then they will have a limited shelf life anyway and will need to be retired. The timelines for the retirement of the virginia's, procurements of the SSNR for both UK and Australia could well overlap very nicely.

If the supplied virginia's are new builds, repurposed from USN procurement pipeline, then it is a lease procurement, with the possible issue they stay on the virginia's and never get onboard with the SSNR...

Time will tell, there is not enough information in the public to know which way this can go.. interesting times, a lot to play for, for sure.

The best thing for Australia is to get onboard with the SSNR programme and contribute core R&D to the programme. The Astutes are best in field right now and things will only get better with a new design that can last Australia for 30-40 years from initial delivery. That is a significant capability upgrade versus the virginia will be getting long in the tooth now anyway over the timelines that Australia is interested in.

It all comes down to what the "initial" order is ...

Jake1992
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Re: Australian Defence Force

Post by Jake1992 »

SW1 wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 08:24
Jake1992 wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 08:21
Mercator wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 07:53
SouthernOne wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 03:52 It's been a long time since I've seen the rumour mill churn out such rapidly evolving, or changing stories.....
there is some internal coherency though, see below:



Most of the initial scoops have these elements it's just that the initial countries to leak, the UK and the US, talked up their own efforts first. Obviously the final deal has to benefit everyone, and these elements seem to do that.
How is designing new subs in the late 30s any good for the UK, even delivery of first build is pushing it since the first Astue is meant to reach end of life by early 30s.
What are we going to do about that gap is the UK just going to see it’s sub numbers fall to no more than a couple or go the route of very expensive refuelling to add those 5-10 years of life.
SSNR design work has already started. The late 2030s is probably when the first boat would reach Australia.
The PWR2 has a 25 year life span and the first Astute was commissioned in 2010 so even if we got from commissioning date it’ll be a very tight line, if the 25 years starts from build and not commission then there will be a gap that needs to be filled somehow or that “late 2030s” time line brought forward.

sunstersun
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Re: Australian Defence Force

Post by sunstersun »

The build should be easier if it's designed along side a richer US Navy no?

It's not like Australia or UK is getting a different boat right?

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mrclark303
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Re: Australian Defence Force

Post by mrclark303 »

Jake1992 wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 13:02
SW1 wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 08:24
Jake1992 wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 08:21
Mercator wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 07:53
SouthernOne wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 03:52 It's been a long time since I've seen the rumour mill churn out such rapidly evolving, or changing stories.....
there is some internal coherency though, see below:



Most of the initial scoops have these elements it's just that the initial countries to leak, the UK and the US, talked up their own efforts first. Obviously the final deal has to benefit everyone, and these elements seem to do that.
How is designing new subs in the late 30s any good for the UK, even delivery of first build is pushing it since the first Astue is meant to reach end of life by early 30s.
What are we going to do about that gap is the UK just going to see it’s sub numbers fall to no more than a couple or go the route of very expensive refuelling to add those 5-10 years of life.
SSNR design work has already started. The late 2030s is probably when the first boat would reach Australia.
The PWR2 has a 25 year life span and the first Astute was commissioned in 2010 so even if we got from commissioning date it’ll be a very tight line, if the 25 years starts from build and not commission then there will be a gap that needs to be filled somehow or that “late 2030s” time line brought forward.
Not strictly true, it's reactor can be refueled, it was envisioned that it wouldn't be when first designed, as the planning was that a steady drum beat of deliveries would see SSNR taking its place at the 25 year ish point. But things have changed since then.

Astute has a design life considerably longer, possibly 35 years, depending on operational use, but an expensive long refit will be required to reach this.

Jake1992
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Re: Australian Defence Force

Post by Jake1992 »

mrclark303 wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 18:49
Jake1992 wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 13:02
SW1 wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 08:24
Jake1992 wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 08:21
Mercator wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 07:53
SouthernOne wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 03:52 It's been a long time since I've seen the rumour mill churn out such rapidly evolving, or changing stories.....
there is some internal coherency though, see below:



Most of the initial scoops have these elements it's just that the initial countries to leak, the UK and the US, talked up their own efforts first. Obviously the final deal has to benefit everyone, and these elements seem to do that.
How is designing new subs in the late 30s any good for the UK, even delivery of first build is pushing it since the first Astue is meant to reach end of life by early 30s.
What are we going to do about that gap is the UK just going to see it’s sub numbers fall to no more than a couple or go the route of very expensive refuelling to add those 5-10 years of life.
SSNR design work has already started. The late 2030s is probably when the first boat would reach Australia.
The PWR2 has a 25 year life span and the first Astute was commissioned in 2010 so even if we got from commissioning date it’ll be a very tight line, if the 25 years starts from build and not commission then there will be a gap that needs to be filled somehow or that “late 2030s” time line brought forward.
Not strictly true, it's reactor can be refueled, it was envisioned that it wouldn't be when first designed, as the planning was that a steady drum beat of deliveries would see SSNR taking its place at the 25 year ish point. But things have changed since then.

Astute has a design life considerably longer, possibly 35 years, depending on operational use, but an expensive long refit will be required to reach this.
Refuelling is very costly is it really practical just to run the Astutes an extra 5 years maybe 8 odd at most if ssnr build is late 30s.

Wouldn’t it be more practical to tell Australia that SSNR will need to be delivered in the early 30s.

SW1
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Re: Australian Defence Force

Post by SW1 »

Just because the Australians will build ssnr’s by the late 30s doesn’t mean we will. We don’t need to build a ssn assembly facility from scratch

Mercator
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Re: Australian Defence Force

Post by Mercator »


SW1
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Re: Australian Defence Force

Post by SW1 »



I wonder if this is a subtlety that initial press reports were overlooking operational control maybe different to owning

wargame_insomniac
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Re: Australian Defence Force

Post by wargame_insomniac »

Once Rolls Royce switched to building PWR3 reactors and VAE Barrow started building the Dreadnought SSBN, then with only one remaining Trafalgar Class in active RN service, it meant that any interim SSN would HAVE to be American.

The first step of RAN staff serving aboard RN and USN boats was a great start to building the well of experience and knowledge. The next would be to have RN/USN subs advance based in Australia so that RAN bases can get used to the specific requirements of SSN. Realistically that was more likely to be USN based on pure numbers available.

I presume US SSN based in Australia would open up easy access to other parts of the Pacific than Hawaii or Guam. I am mainly thinking on Sunda Strait and Lombok Strait etc. I assume that by "Operational Control" they will remain US owed , possibly with some RAN crew, but working under day to day RAN command. A bit like when USS The Sullivans took part in the UK CSG 2021.

Mercator
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Re: Australian Defence Force

Post by Mercator »

There will be dedicated East and West submarine bases. Garden Island Western Australia will be the first, but there are plans to develop better facilities in the East. At present, they use Sydney Harbour facilities.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-12/ ... c_news_web

Port Kembla (100 km south of Sydney) isn't very big, but nevertheless can handle half a dozen bulk carriers here or there. It's likely the submarine base would be in the outer harbour and I don't suppose it would be real large. Maybe half a dozen pier-side berths at best, but I guess it's normal for submarines to double up.

R686
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Re: Australian Defence Force

Post by R686 »

Mercator wrote: 11 Mar 2023, 23:49 There will be dedicated East and West submarine bases. Garden Island Western Australia will be the first, but there are plans to develop better facilities in the East. At present, they use Sydney Harbour facilities.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-12/ ... c_news_web

Port Kembla (100 km south of Sydney) isn't very big, but nevertheless can handle half a dozen bulk carriers here or there. It's likely the submarine base would be in the outer harbour and I don't suppose it would be real large. Maybe half a dozen pier-side berths at best, but I guess it's normal for submarines to double up.

I go down to PK all the time unless the intend to compulsory aquire from NSW Ports not really sure where they will put it

I still think with the new international airport being built at Badgery Creek then Kingsford smith should become the ultimate multiuser base for RAN/RAAF with RAAF Richmond transferring and HMAS Albatross moving in

Ther is a proposal to build a second parallel runway which would free up the existing reclaimed runway to be converted to berthing of ships i think its doable but not sure what Mac bank will think of it

https://www.infrastructureaustralia.gov ... rief_0.pdf

With Garden island being handed to the state government to become the new cruise terminal

R686
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Re: Australian Defence Force

Post by R686 »

Exclusive: MAJGEN King sets record straight on Black Hawk acquisition

https://www.defenceconnect.com.au/land- ... cquisition

Interesting titbits out of it

operating costs reduced by a third

1x MRH compared to 3x UH-60M in a C-17

MRH must have been a big girl if only one can fit in a C17


SW1
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Re: Australian Defence Force

Post by SW1 »



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