New Zealand Defence Force

News and discussion threads on defence in other parts of the world.
NighthawkNZ
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Re: New Zealand Defence Force

Post by NighthawkNZ »

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Royal New Zealand Navy vessel HMNZS Aotearoa made a port visit to Fleet Base East in Sydney, New South Wales, on 13 March 2021. Aotearoa has been exercising off the east coast of Australia to test her capabilities in international waters. This has included Replenishment at Sea (RAS) exercises with Royal Australian Navy guided missile destroyer HMAS Hobart and frigate HMAS Stuart. The RAS training was a chance to strengthen relationships between the two neighbouring countries and has showcased Navy's interoperability at sea with its counterparts. Note: HMNZS Aotearoa has completed a 14-day quarantine period at sea to comply with NSW Government COVID-19 restrictions.

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NighthawkNZ
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Re: New Zealand Defence Force

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From topside to inside. Following the installation of her new superstructure, HMNZS Te Mana recently moved across Canada’s Esquimalt Harbour from Victoria Shipyards to the Fleet Maintenance Facility for the next stage of her frigate systems upgrade.

For the Commanding Officer, Commander Mike Peebles and the 104 crew on board, this was a significant occasion as their ship is future-proofed to provide a combat capability into the 2030’s.

Image

Attention now turns to inside Te Mana with the crew supporting the testing of the new combat and weapons systems, recertification of armament magazines and ensuring Incline Experiments are carried out to determine the new centre of gravity on the ship given the new superstructure and equipment.'

Once this work is complete later this year, a series of harbour and sea trials will be conducted.

For the officers and crew of Te Mana, the ship’s motto of Kokiri Kia U – Striving towards perfection, is something they are taking very seriously during this period.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: New Zealand Defence Force

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NighthawkNZ wrote: Incline Experiments are carried out to determine the new centre of gravity on the ship given the new superstructure and equipment.'
Will probs come out better than when new
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

NighthawkNZ
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Re: New Zealand Defence Force

Post by NighthawkNZ »

Reports from HMNZS Te Kaha's captain he says she responses more quickly and is more zippy... and she corrects her rolls a little quicker.

After their engine upgrades a few years back, it made the Kiwi Anzac's a little faster then the Aussie counter parts and with Aussie upgrades made their Anzac's a little sluggish and rolls a little heavier...

I also believe there is still room in the top weight calculation to add any ASM missile system ie Harpoon... which is "Fitted for but not with" which personally I hope we don't get get harpoon but look at the Navel Strike Missile, Penguin's bigger brother...

seaspear
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Re: New Zealand Defence Force

Post by seaspear »

Is there any argument for the N.Z Anzac class to fitted with a towed asw array
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... s-frigates

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: New Zealand Defence Force

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

TeKaha, beautifully painted!

from, "https://www.facebook.com/NZNavy/"

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Re: New Zealand Defence Force

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Impressive photo and status reports of HMNZS Te Mana (the 2nd ship) almost finishing its upgrade, and now moving into re-standing up works.
see bit.ly/navytoday253

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Re: New Zealand Defence Force

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

from RNZN facebook page

While HMNZS Te Kaha has new painting and starting trainings in New Zealand water, the second ship, HMNZS Te Mana, coming out of refit at Victroria, Canada. Now RNZN crew is working on her. Steadily on going. :thumbup:
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NighthawkNZ
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Re: New Zealand Defence Force

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Defence Force launches new Southern Ocean patrol vessel project, price tag $300m+

The Ministry of Defence is testing the waters with the military maritime industry over a new ship to patrol the vast icy expanse between New Zealand and Antarctica.

The project is in its early stages, but planning documents indicate the ice-strengthened ship would cost between $300m and $600m.

On May 11, both the ministry and the Defence Force released a Request for Information (RFI) for the design and build of a Southern Ocean Patrol Vessel.

An overview of the RFI obtained by Stuff says it is a market research tool and does not signal the start of a procurement process.

It says the Defence Force wants information on the design and build of an ice-strengthened offshore patrol vessel.

The ship will “enhance the ability of the New Zealand Government to maintain a presence, undertake enforcement activities and support science outputs, in the environmentally demanding conditions of the Southern Ocean and Ross Sea”, according to background information in the RFI document.

“Built to commercial standards, the vessel will significantly increase the level of capability and safety for operations in the Southern Ocean.”

“The new vessel will be able to conduct patrols across a wider range of ice, sea state and temperature conditions than is possible with the present naval patrol fleet, noting it will be traversing one of the roughest seas in the world, and must be able to operate safely in Ross Sea ice conditions.”

The ship will be required to undertake a range of military tasks, including maritime patrol, intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance, maritime interdiction operations, and supporting military training activities, the document says.

It will also be tasked with non-military activities such as “defence diplomacy” by monitoring compliance with the Convention for the Conservation of Antarctic Marine Living Resources, along with supporting scientific research programmes and undertaking search and rescue operations.

Investment in the Southern Ocean Patrol Vessel was previously signalled in the 2019 Defence Capability Plan, which said it would be acquired in the mid-2020s.

The new vessel would give the existing Protector-class offshore patrol vessels, HMNZS Wellington and Otago, greater capacity to respond in the Pacific, the plan said.

It says the cost of the vessel would be from $300m to $600m and would be introduced into service by 2027.

Ministry of Defence capability delivery deputy secretary Mike Yardley said the Navy’s existing patrol capabilities were unable to meet the changing requirements of New Zealand’s maritime domain.

“A request for information from industry is to provide information to inform a business case, and is standard when capability projects are at this early stage," he said.

“No decisions have been made by the Government about procuring a vessel of this type.”
Click here for the RFI

http://nighthawk.nz/index.php/4510-defence-force-launches-new-southern-ocean-patrol-vessel-project-price-tag-300m

Well the RFI is out and they want quite a capable vessel

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Re: New Zealand Defence Force

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NighthawkNZ wrote:Well the RFI is out and they want quite a capable vessel
Anything out there that fits the bill? The Canadian Harry De Wolf Class?

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Re: New Zealand Defence Force

Post by Mercator »

At the low end, the Australian equivalent vessels can be bought for $50-130M easily, depending on new or used.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADV_Ocean_Protector
https://www.naval-technology.com/projec ... an-shield/

If the figures quoted include support costs for some period of time, this might be the approximate target vessel. If not, it will still be a reference capability standard for the price conscious.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: New Zealand Defence Force

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Icelandic CG Thor?
1B class for navigating its way amongst ice floes
and with a 40 mm Bofors :)

A bit more detail on Thor, from https://dan8875.wixsite.com/dan-entwisl ... essel-Thor

Designed by British company Rolls-Royce Marine, she was built in Chile [on the right ocean :) ] and weighs in at nearly 4,000 tonnes.



Thor’s owners are understandably proud of this very capable vessel, the Iceland Coast Guard responding to my request for information about her within minutes of receiving an email.



Thor is a robust multi-role ship which performs roles as diverse as military patrols to tug boat duties. She would be quite a match for a modern-day Royal Navy frigate. Fortunately both Thor and British frigates are scarce commodities these days, and are unlikely to serve their nations as ocean-going battering rams.



Rolls-Royce clearly based Thor’s design on large offshore tugs and support ships used in the service of the oil and gas industry. Thor differs from her civilian counterparts in a number of key ways.

She carries three radar systems, exceeding the standards laid out under maritime regulations. Her surface sensors are complemented by a Synthetic Aperture Sonar which provides high resolution images of submerged contacts. It is an essential piece of kit for one of Thor’s many roles - Hydrographic surveying.



With a command and communication system Thor can control search and rescue operations and although not fitted with a helicopter flight deck, she can refuel helicopters via a system called HIFR.

Should Thor come across a vessel on fire, she has the equipment to tackle the flames. Any environmental mess left over can be taken care of with her oil recovery system. If a ship is disabled, Thor’s 120 tonne bollard pull rating makes her a capable emergency tug.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

NighthawkNZ
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Re: New Zealand Defence Force

Post by NighthawkNZ »

Reading through the RFI things to note;
* Maximum speed of not less than 16 knots.
* Designed and built as Polar Class 5 to IACS Unified Rules for polar ships
* Icebreaking performance equivalent to breaking 1.0m of medium first year sea ice3 with 0.3m of snow cover at a forward speed of 3 knots continuously, and similarly when operating astern but at a reduced speed.
* Able to carry up to 6 standard Shipping containers.
* Crane to load/unload cargo
* Helo pad and hanger military helicopter envelopes and weights up to and including NH-90 and MH-60R. Include refuel and maintenance.
* Hangar stowage and maintenance envelope capacity to simultaneously embark a Remotely
Piloted Aerial System (RPAS) (Indicative RPAS size up to Boeing Integrator RQ-21.)
* Ability to launch and recover a small 12m landing Craft.
* Ability to receive liquids using NATO probe one side or both at sea underway in conditions up to and including Sea State 5. Ability to RAS refuel at sea.
* Unrefuelled range of 12000 nautical miles at an average transit speed of 14 knots
* Minimum endurance of 50 days’ supply of stores and provisions for total complement (100)
* Armament 99% it will be 25mm typhoon and a couple of HMG

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: New Zealand Defence Force

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

If you can access this paper
THE FINNISH TURVA CLASS OFFSHORE PATROL VESSEL

Due to the severe winter conditions and diversity of waters in Finland, it is not possible to adopt 'standard' coast guard cutters. They must have certain qualities like icebreaking ability that are not common in coast guard vessels elsewhere. This paper describes the role of the Finnish offshore Coast Guard fleet and the design, construction and service experience of the Turva class Finnish offshore coast guard ships. A general description and layout together with the body plan of the ship are shown.

Supplemental Notes:
R.I.N.A. Symposium on Small Fast Warships and Security Vessels, London, Paper No.22 (10 pp., 3 ref., 1 tab., 4 diag., 6 graphs, 4 phot.)

... then you would be able to tick the list; as for a/c of any type the deck has been dimensioned for a medium helicopter (in Finland's case the NH90, but they do fly also Super Pumas for maritime SAR)

The ship can actually break ice, rather than safely navigate amongst floes:
The propulsion system will integrate three controllable pitch propellers, including a centre-line shaft and two Rolls-Royce AZP120CP Z-drive azimuth pulling propellers.

Turva is the first OPV to feature this type of propulsion configuration, which is intended for icebreakers and ice-going LNG carriers.

The vessel will also be equipped with two bow thrusters for high manoeuvrability and dynamic positioning. The bollard pull capacity of 100t provides the ability to tow the largest tanker vessels operating in the Baltic Sea. The propulsion system provides a service speed of 18kt.
- may need scaling up, though, to get the required range as the Baltic is not exactly https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Se ... ied-in.png a vast expanse like the Southern Ocean
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

lordroel
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Re: New Zealand Defence Force

Post by lordroel »

NighthawkNZ wrote:Reading through the RFI things to note;
The Canadian Harry DeWolf-class offshore patrol vessels fit the bill reading this list you posted.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: New Zealand Defence Force

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

The price for the above could knock you for six?

Namely, the Canadian defence proc website gives, for the 6 vessels
"The Arctic and Offshore Patrol Ship project acquisition budget [is] $4.3 billion (excluding taxes). This includes ship design, project management, materials and labour needed to build all the ships, jetty and fueling infrastructure, initial spare parts, technical data, training of crew, contingency, amongst other items."
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

NighthawkNZ
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Re: New Zealand Defence Force

Post by NighthawkNZ »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:If you can access this paper
THE FINNISH TURVA CLASS OFFSHORE PATROL VESSEL
  1. Would need to be scaled up to carry those 6 containers, plus crane
  2. Needs a hanger large enough to stow NH-90 + RPAS so the pad would most likely be stern... which is a major redesign.
  3. Needs stowage for 12m landing craft, plus the RHIBS and the ability to carry 2 more if required.
There are a few other minor things I can think of... The major one though is hanger and redesign etc...

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: New Zealand Defence Force

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Yet another Te Mana image.
from: ""
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Re: New Zealand Defence Force

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

NighthawkNZ wrote:It says the cost of the vessel would be from $300m to $600m and would be introduced into service by 2027.
I understand this is NZDollar, which is 0.51 GBP.

So the ship is £150-300M.

At its maximum, RV Sir David Attenborough (after its cost rise) is possible? (may be not).

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: New Zealand Defence Force

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

ArmChairCivvy wrote: for the 6 vessels
"The Arctic and Offshore Patrol Ship project acquisition budget [is] $4.3 billion
that's in CAD,
cfr. this budget, which for the one-off
donald_of_tokyo wrote:ship is £150-300M.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

NighthawkNZ
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Re: New Zealand Defence Force

Post by NighthawkNZ »

donald_of_tokyo wrote:
NighthawkNZ wrote:It says the cost of the vessel would be from $300m to $600m and would be introduced into service by 2027.
I understand this is NZDollar, which is 0.51 GBP.

So the ship is £150-300M.

At its maximum, RV Sir David Attenborough (after its cost rise) is possible? (may be not).
Helo pad needs to be at the stern and a hanger which is a major redesign. Southern Ocean is one of the roughest seas/ocean in the world and they regularly record the largest swells and waves there. Add the cold

GB £200 million in 2014 is about GB £235 million in 2021 convert that to NZD $461.40 million (now add inflation for 2026) Probably $480 million. HMNZS Aotearoa cost NZ$493 million in 2016 when the contract was signed.

However it would be cheaper to build in South Korea where HMNZS Aotearoa was built.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: New Zealand Defence Force

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

NighthawkNZ wrote: would be cheaper to build in South Korea
Turva (upthread) was built by STX Finland, though today the Koreans have nothing to do with that yard anymore
... have they ever built anything in ice class 5 over there?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: New Zealand Defence Force

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

NighthawkNZ wrote:Helo pad needs to be at the stern and a hanger which is a major redesign. Southern Ocean is one of the roughest seas/ocean in the world and they regularly record the largest swells and waves there. Add the cold

GB £200 million in 2014 is about GB £235 million in 2021 convert that to NZD $461.40 million (now add inflation for 2026) Probably $480 million. HMNZS Aotearoa cost NZ$493 million in 2016 when the contract was signed.

However it would be cheaper to build in South Korea where HMNZS Aotearoa was built.
I agree RRS Sir David Attenborough is too large. But, why Helo pad needs to be at the stern? RRS SDA is expected to work exactly at the same place as RNZN Southern Ocean OPV. Also, when looking at HMNZS Manamanui, having a helo-pad on bow is not so "un-common". Not saying it must be at bow, but limiting it to be at stern will limit the available designs?

# Not blaming anything, just a genuine question. :D

NighthawkNZ
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Re: New Zealand Defence Force

Post by NighthawkNZ »

donald_of_tokyo wrote:I agree RRS Sir David Attenborough is too large. But, why Helo pad needs to be at the stern? RRS SDA is expected to work exactly at the same place as RNZN Southern Ocean OPV. Also, when looking at HMNZS Manamanui, having a helo-pad on bow is not so "un-common". Not saying it must be at bow, but limiting it to be at stern will limit the available designs?

# Not blaming anything, just a genuine question. :D
Reason for stern flight deck is it must
A)- Must have a hanger. It would be a major, major design to have the hanger up front upping the cost, so ight as well just design from scratch...

B)- Be able to launch and recover helo's and drones in higher sea state. With a stern flight deck you can be in a higher sea state for flying operations as you have no waves over the bow, the pitch of the ship can be read easier and is not as extreme as on the bow and sometimes can be less in rough seas as the pitch of the bow hits the next wave before the stern has finished the last meaning the flight deck hasn't moved as much... (very basic explanation)

We use to in rough seas go to the aft of the ship because it the pitch wasn't as bad... I remember being thrown out of my Pit (bunk) in rough seas on a IPC and ended up sleeping in the wardroom... which was further aft and it was calmer.

C)- Finally from memory it basically said it in the RFI.
Page 22 - Section Aviation - An aft section located hangar and flight deck capable of supporting a single military helicopter
operations and maintenance in conditions up to and including Sea State 5.

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: New Zealand Defence Force

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Thanks, so its a requirement on RFI. Your point on stability is also clear.

PS Then, how will the RRS SDA's and HMNZS Mawananui's flight deck will be used? May be when the ship is at anchor?

PS2 By the way, RRS SD Attenborough does have a hanger. Interesting arrangement. (Can HMNZS Mawananui's bridge structure be "rebuilt" in future to do the same? At least, smaller hangar for UAV could be added with an arrangement alike).
See "https://i2-prod.liverpoolecho.co.uk/inc ... it-BAS.jpg"

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