UK Defence Forum

Lord Jim wrote:Are there still KC-135s at RAF Mildenhall?

Yup, until they close the base. They had them relaying the crash site when that F-15 went down

Why when we had so many runways/ airbases did we decide to a, keep Waddington and b, base aircraft there that need long runways! ? Over the last few decades we have closed loads of airbases why keep this one for the snoopy stuff?

Sorry off topic

Lucky we don’t need it anymore

Russian MOD has published footage claiming to show British Sentinel R1 (and French Atlantique II) over the Black Sea, near the Russian state border.

Absolutely definitely don’t need them

A great overview of this a/c and what it’s done in service

https://www.raytheon.com/sites/default/ ... l_Book.pdf

SW1 wrote:A great overview of this a/c and what it’s done in service

https://www.raytheon.com/sites/default/ ... l_Book.pdf

So why are your lot so desperate to get rid of it?

The end is now

Tornado out, Sentinel out, Protector late (or delayed for budgetary reasons?)
- where does this leave RAF's over-ground, wide-area surveillance?

Ron5 wrote:So why are your lot so desperate to get rid of it?

Bloody good question.

SW1 wrote:The end is now

It wonders me that they didn't cut them off to shreds, considering the amount of hate by the RAF top brass towards that plane...

abc123 wrote: It wonders me that they didn't cut them off to shreds

WE only do that when we can destroy the jigs, too (like with TSR-2 and Nimrod MRA)
- never leave a job half done

ArmChairCivvy wrote:

abc123 wrote: It wonders me that they didn't cut them off to shreds

WE only do that when we can destroy the jigs, too (like with TSR-2 and Nimrod MRA)
- never leave a job half done

Yeah, these cases inspired my comment...

Lord Jim wrote:

Ron5 wrote:So why are your lot so desperate to get rid of it?

Bloody good question.

I just wonder how much it costs to keep 5 Sentinels in service that are the only examples of their kind in the world? Also wonder if in retrospect we should really have gone down that route a couple of decades back, i.e what's the opportunity cost?

All strategic ISTAR aircraft are to a extent unique to a countries need hence why most are conversions. There are quite a number of similar but different global express aircraft flying around the world. Not to mention a number of gulfstreams. There is a large market for such a/c.

Had it not been for ITAR these would have found an organisation willing to buy. These are being cut because p8 is costing more than thought and cuts need to be made.

In 2016 a 130m contract was placed to keep the aircraft in service until 2021. They remain deployed on operational missions

SW1 wrote: These are being cut because p8 is costing more than thought and cuts need to be made.

And, oops, in the config they have been ordered, they are not ready to take the over-the-ground radar... some sources say. Would that be right?

SW1 wrote: There are quite a number of similar but different global express aircraft flying around the world. Not to mention a number of gulfstreams.

Those two seem to be the work horses, but the market for 'strategic' ISTAR a/c seems to be converging between the niche categories of wide-area surveillance/ELINT/ AEW/ EW and from that point of view should not the new airframe that Saab is working on - the Bombardier Global 6000 long-range business jet - be seen as a step up in size, so as to be able to accommodate more "modules" over their life?
- as opposed to our (early on ) conversions that were pushed to the limit as for the weight of the installed 'package'

ArmChairCivvy wrote:

SW1 wrote: These are being cut because p8 is costing more than thought and cuts need to be made.

And, oops, in the config they have been ordered, they are not ready to take the over-the-ground radar... some sources say. Would that be right?

SW1 wrote: There are quite a number of similar but different global express aircraft flying around the world. Not to mention a number of gulfstreams.

Those two seem to be the work horses, but the market for 'strategic' ISTAR a/c seems to be converging between the niche categories of wide-area surveillance/ELINT/ AEW/ EW and from that point of view should not the new airframe that Saab is working on - the Bombardier Global 6000 long-range business jet - be seen as a step up in size, so as to be able to accommodate more "modules" over their life?
- as opposed to our (early on ) conversions that were pushed to the limit as for the weight of the installed 'package'

The 6000/6500 is pretty much the standard airframe for conversion now. Like everything the discussion of Astor and weight has like any story grown legs to reinforce agendas. There was a height and range requirement for the aircraft (one a 737 could not meet) which had a bearing on what the final weight was. Weight was the issue that resulted in associated delays to the aircraft arriving as a result of the radar people declaring a doubling in weight when the airframe modifications had already been designed whoops. This often following into a story on a aar requirement which was rejected being associated with weight issue however it was really more a cost and time issue for a airframe that had been expected to operate in pairs.

Most of that is historical, technology has advanced so much and sensors,AI, systems reduced in size and weight you can fit quite a lot in any airframe of that size now which many are doing regularly now.

SW1 wrote:you can fit quite a lot in any airframe of that size now which many are doing regularly now

Yes, JSTARS replacement was going to shrink dramatically, too. Not sure what happened, have not followed that closely
- I guess maritime surveillance is different as the ability to find is combined (not always) with the ability to persecute. And it is the latter that is driving size (more)?

ArmChairCivvy wrote:- I guess maritime surveillance is different as the ability to find is combined (not always) with the ability to persecute. And it is the latter that is driving size (more)?

As it’s Christmas best not open that can of worms

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Yes, JSTARS replacement was going to shrink dramatically, too. Not sure what happened, have not followed that closely

The plan to replace it with another aircraft was canned, the last I'd read they were looking to use a combo of satellites and other sensors to do the job... Possibly the same as the AWACS replacement

Wonder if there in the market for a few second hand ones

https://www.wpafb.af.mil/News/Article-D ... stainment/

Currently, there are seven aircraft carrying the BACN payload on two different platforms: three manned Bombardier E-11As and four unmanned Global Hawk E-Q4Bs.

In an effort to boost the fleet, the BACN Program Office, headquartered here, is working to procure six E-11A aircraft over the next five years. The team has secured additional funding for the first aircraft, and contract negotiations on a purchase agreement are currently in progress.

The team expects to award that contract by end of March, and the aircraft to be delivered by the end of June.

Since 2008, BACN has provided military commanders with a long-range, over-the-horizon secure communication capability that connects troops to combat pilots, despite adverse terrain or distance, often when terrestrial services are either restricted or unavailable.

SW1 wrote:a long-range, over-the-horizon secure communication capability that connects troops to combat pilots, despite adverse terrain or distance, often when terrestrial services are either restricted or unavailable

Similar a/c (smaller) logged a huge number of hrs over the length of the Afghanistan campaign... which hasn't finished as yet.

ArmChairCivvy wrote:

SW1 wrote:a long-range, over-the-horizon secure communication capability that connects troops to combat pilots, despite adverse terrain or distance, often when terrestrial services are either restricted or unavailable

Similar a/c (smaller) logged a huge number of hrs over the length of the Afghanistan campaign... which hasn't finished as yet.

They took the Astor trials aircraft of bombardier/Raytheon’s hands for the first e11a. Mind u if your looking to have dispersed troops deployed over wide areas very useful capability to have to communicate and disperse intel too a la the general discussion thread.

And so it comes to pass sad to see but the last operational flight for Sentinel