UK Defence Forum

I wonder how must it would cost in total to buy three or four Bombardier Global Express jet on the second hand market, install a Raptor sensor in a canoe underneath and install workstations and a date links including satellite. We know the sensor works so that is probably the most expensive part, and such a platform would have great utility in so many roles and probably be very good value for money. The sensor is far superior to that carrier by the Predator and future Protector.

Buying the jet isn’t particularly expensive even the Astor ones new were very cheap. About a 1/3rd of the list price new is for interior fit out even the RAF will forgo the BarcaLounger! You could pickup second hand ones for around $20m mark. The aero/cert/config work for the canoe configuration is done that’s why there’s so many have piggybacked off it.

Problem is the RAF don’t like aircraft at different mod standards they like them all at a common start point. If you buy second hand your likely going to need to go thru a de-mod process. Even had to do it with Astor as the order crossed a mod cut in!

But it’s all hypothetical there’s no funding, they hitched there wagon to bubba now!

Sentinel to be removed from service March 2021.

Don't think we can expect a reprieve this time....the MoD are saying it down to obsolescence...after 13 years in service....with one of the most advanced sensors aloft...

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/sentine ... e-say-mod/

And yet another sham, of yet another critical bit of capability being removed without a replacement ready to take over from Day 0.

First RAPTOR, now Sentinel.

Armed Forces are going to end up blind.

RetroSicotte wrote:First RAPTOR, now Sentinel.

Armed Forces are going to end up blind.

Exactly my thoughts

Not to mention awacs going before replacement too.

If you keep order stuff you can’t afford things like this will continue to happen.

Timmymagic wrote:the MoD are saying it down to obsolescence...after 13 years in service....with one of the most advanced sensors aloft...

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/sentine ... e-say-mod/

Yeah, right.

Man would expect that with big bad Russia just waiting to invade NATO the systems like Sentinel would be worth it's weight in gold...
But yes, you can clearly see how much even the MoD believes in it's own narrative...

Well we can always send our Shadows over enemy lines to see what they are doing, as that is all the ISTAR we will have left and they are cheaper than those damn Protectors when every they turn up, plus the Government cares jack @@@@ about personnel loses due to having the wrong kit in the wrong role.

Mind the gap.

One of the RAF's most valuable capabilities scrapped without replacement.

shark bait wrote:Mind the gap.

One of the RAF's most valuable capabilities scrapped without replacement.

Russian and US such aircrafts and systems that are 40 years old aren't obsolete, but British 15 years old are? Disgrace.

Found this in Jane's
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... effef06dd2

Why does the RAF hate the Sentinels so much?

To follow-up: they've been given more army (AAC) planes
- what are the prospects for those?

Ron5 wrote:Why does the RAF hate the Sentinels so much?

Coz it's not a cool piece of kit unless you Yanks use it

Ron5 wrote:Why does the RAF hate the Sentinels so much?

Indeed.

On the other hand, buying a new aircrafts to replace not even 15 years old ones, wtf? And then wondering how the spending plan goes into red ...

abc123 wrote:Why does the RAF hate the Sentinels so much?

I think the point is the old mechanically scanned radar on the E3 is not sensitive enough to detect stealthy targets unlike the AESA on the Wedgetail.
Secondly the RAF failed to properly keep their E3's up to date resulting in big operational and maintenance issues including lack of spares etc.
Thirdly The cost of upgrading the E3 was more or less the same as buying new e7 with its superior AESA radar.

bobp wrote:

abc123 wrote:Why does the RAF hate the Sentinels so much?

I think the point is the old mechanically scanned radar on the E3 is not sensitive enough to detect stealthy targets unlike the AESA on the Wedgetail.
Secondly the RAF failed to properly keep their E3's up to date resulting in big operational and maintenance issues including lack of spares etc.
Thirdly The cost of upgrading the E3 was more or less the same as buying new e7 with its superior AESA radar.

Sentinels.

I suppose when you are short of funds and need to make savings somewhere you look at everything and decide what you can do without, and which has the smallest impact on your primary mission(s). Someone has obviously made the call that the RAF can do without the Sentinel going forward even though it has been of great use in COIN operations in Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria.

abc123 wrote:Sentinels.

Sorry got mixed up in my ageing skull.

I find it interesting that the RAF are willing to spend an awful lot of money on new facilities at RAF Waddington, including a huge new building and Hangar for the E7, and new housing for 1000 airmen, and families but cant spare the money to keep the Sentinels going, based at RAF Waddington also, as well as the Red Arrows (soon) and Rivet Joint.

bobp wrote:

abc123 wrote:Sentinels.

Sorry got mixed up in my ageing skull.

I find it interesting that the RAF are willing to spend an awful lot of money on new facilities at RAF Waddington, including a huge new building and Hangar for the E7, and new housing for 1000 airmen, and families but cant spare the money to keep the Sentinels going, based at RAF Waddington also, as well as the Red Arrows (soon) and Rivet Joint.

Fully agreed.

bobp wrote:

abc123 wrote:Sentinels.

Sorry got mixed up in my ageing skull.

I find it interesting that the RAF are willing to spend an awful lot of money on new facilities at RAF Waddington, including a huge new building and Hangar for the E7, and new housing for 1000 airmen, and families but cant spare the money to keep the Sentinels going, based at RAF Waddington also, as well as the Red Arrows (soon) and Rivet Joint.

If I remember rightly, one potential plan is to joint-base with the USAF at RAF Fairford once they complete their move. Allegedly the Waddington runway is too short for an RC-135 to take off with a full fuel load necessitating it meet up with a tanker once in the air according to some USAF Colonel back in 2017

Lord Jim wrote:even though it has been of great use in COIN operations in Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria

add N. Nigeria (heh-heh, you can see well past the porous border), and I think I've seen Mali mentioned too... a recce for our 250-strong ground force going in this summer (if that hasn't been cancelled?).

Defiance wrote:joint-base with the USAF at RAF Fairford once they complete their move.

Does the rumour have any timings attached? Though the USAF generally speaking pulled back, to further West, I think their tanker force moved in the opposite direction (could be just for reaching the Med/ M. East quicker and easier).

Defiance wrote:Allegedly the Waddington runway is too short

Surprised at that statement, bearing in mind that when I was there in the 1970's it was a V bomber base. And more recently the E3-D being based there.

bobp wrote:

Defiance wrote:Allegedly the Waddington runway is too short

Surprised at that statement, bearing in mind that when I was there in the 1970's it was a V bomber base. And more recently the E3-D being based there.

I was as well, I found the article which quotes the chap if people were interested

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/us-uk-c ... -135-base/

Specifically

Colonel Thomas Torkelson was quoted in Air Force Magazine as saying:

“The UK doesn’t like Waddington as a long-term solution for their rivet joints because the runway is too short and they require a tanker for every mission from there. So they’ve been waiting for our basing decision [for the location of US Air Force RC-135s in Europe] to see if they might be able to potentially pile onto that and maybe put their UK rivet joints there.”

Torkelson became head of 100th ARW in 2015 so I would imagine he's familiar with the problems if he's being asked to top up UK RC-135s regularly.

Are there still KC-135s at RAF Mildenhall?