Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

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Timmymagic
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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Post by Timmymagic »

Hard to tell if this actually implies that Sentinel is now safe and the 5th Sentinel is being refitted for service (following maritime trials).


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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Post by RetroSicotte »

A/C refers to aircraft. RPA, MPA, Shadow are all definitely getting more, Sentry and RJ aren't; so that must refer to the 5th rejoining the fleet.

I suspect it'll likely stick around until Poseidon, at which point the Gov spin machine can claim that Poseidon is a full replacement for it.

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Post by Gabriele »

It's been only months since they downsized the fleet and reduced the number of crews. I struggle to believe that the 5th is coming back. That slide is more than a little puzzling.
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Timmymagic
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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Post by Timmymagic »

Gabriele wrote:I struggle to believe that the 5th is coming back. That slide is more than a little puzzling.
It's odd language isn't it? 'Recovered from storage' is not exactly 'Returned to service'.....but then the arrow implies the fleet size will increase?
Used for training or ground instructional perhaps, thereby releasing one into active service?

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

The 5th sentinel is being maintained at a flyable status. This is a unique capability outside the states and should be maintained properly. The shadows are preparing to go into an upgrade program so there numbers will be in flux for a bit.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

SW1 wrote:The 5th sentinel is being maintained at a flyable status.
Again different from operational status. Did it not go to storage bcz it was used for the tests in "el cheapo" MPA role... and then restoring it back to the same config as the others did not have funds?
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Gabriele
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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Post by Gabriele »

The 5th is not coming back. The twitter "ISR Manager" who posted that slide has confirmed that it is not current, but refers to SDSR changes. The removal of the 5th Sentinel was successive.

In other words, historical interest only. Don't read too much in it.
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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... et-460821/

Meanwhile, Roland Howell, Raytheon UK's director airborne ISR, says a Mark 2 upgrade activity for the Shadow fleet remains on schedule for completion during 2023. "We are working a number of options in terms of what configuration it is, and the route to those," he says.

Separately, Howell says a Ministry of Defence-funded 10-year C-check activity now being performed on a stored Sentinel R1 battlefield surveillance aircraft should be completed in December, or January 2020.

The RAF's four active Bombardier Global Express-based Sentinels are scheduled to be retired in March 2021, when the service's support arrangement with Raytheon expires. However, Howell says: "We are very optimistic about the extension of Sentinel. It's a great platform, it’s doing a fantastic job and its output is in high demand across the coalition.

"We are in discussions with the MoD about what those future support arrangements might look like, and what activities are required in order to underpin the ability for the platform to continue delivering," he says. "We are having no discussions at the moment about disposal or alternative arrangements."

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Post by abc123 »

Didn't the Indians wanted to buy a pair of Sentinels?
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What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

abc123 wrote:Didn't the Indians wanted to buy a pair of Sentinels?
They bought and converted several of there own..... as have a number of other countries all using a similar aero configuration.

Australia were keen if we went ahead with disposal they’ve now ordered similar but from gulfstream.

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Post by Timmymagic »

SW1 wrote:Australia were keen if we went ahead with disposal they’ve now ordered similar but from gulfstream
I know they look similar, but the MC-55A Peregrine are, as far as I'm aware, Electronic Warfare not radar reconaissance like Sentinel. The Indian ERJ based aircraft is AEW&C, it might have some ground mapping functions but it's not going to be in the same league as Sentinel or J-Stars.

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Timmymagic wrote:they look similar, but the MC-55A Peregrine are, as far as I'm aware, Electronic Warfare not radar reconaissance like Sentinel.
Didn't Italy acquire both varieties but of Israeli make (using the same airframe)?

Back to the UK: Shadow fleet for next "Operation Mudhut" and Sentinels likely to be extended.
- isn't the real gap in armed (self escorted) recce and wide-area surveillance, ie. the gap left by RAPTOR?
- or are we just going to buy enough of unmanned, to be able to afford to lose a few (without a mission kill)?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

Timmymagic wrote:
SW1 wrote:Australia were keen if we went ahead with disposal they’ve now ordered similar but from gulfstream
I know they look similar, but the MC-55A Peregrine are, as far as I'm aware, Electronic Warfare not radar reconaissance like Sentinel. The Indian ERJ based aircraft is AEW&C, it might have some ground mapping functions but it's not going to be in the same league as Sentinel or J-Stars.
No not thinking of the Indian awac. Here’s the Indian one https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/defenceu ... lanes/amp/

These aircraft have a numbers of functions and capabilities on each platform.

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

SW1 wrote: the Indian one
also of Israeli origin: "The Entire System based on the Bombardier BD-700-1A11 Global 5000 Plane and Custom Modified in Israel"
- as was their previous (upgrade to a) 707 - in which one of the (today's) Raytheon divisions had supplied the original 'furniture'
- as are the upgrades to Russian supplied AWACS planes
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Post by SW1 »


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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

Another country following a trend the RAF started years ago yet failed embrace properly.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... s-platform

Germany has finally abandoned its plans to acquire four Northrop Grumman MQ-4C Triton UAVs configured for signals intelligence (Sigint) at an estimated cost of $2.5 billion, after the U.S. Navy’s offer for the delivery of Triton aircraft expired in late December 2019. Instead, reports suggest that Germany will now procure three manned Bombardier Global 6000 special-mission aircraft, although no funding has yet been allocated.

Purchase of the Tritons was approved by the U.S. in 2018. The aircraft were intended to fly signals intelligence missions under the Persistent German Airborne Surveillance System (Pegasus) program and were to have been equipped with a Hensoldt ISIS-ZB Sigint sensor system derived from that originally designed by Airbus for the earlier, stillborn RQ-4E Euro Hawk. The same system will now be carried by the new Global 6000s.

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Post by Timmymagic »

RC-135 is a fantastic capability, but you have to wonder if a ELINT Sentinel would have been a better buy in the long term. We could have had spare funds and crew to get an EW version like the Australians...

And in other news...

https://www.wsj.com/articles/bombardier ... 1580835712

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

SW1 wrote: the Tritons was approved by the U.S. in 2018.[and] The aircraft were intended to fly signals intelligence missions under the Persistent German Airborne Surveillance System (Pegasus) program and were to have been equipped with a Hensoldt ISIS-ZB Sigint sensor system derived from that originally designed by Airbus for the earlier, stillborn RQ-4E Euro Hawk. The same system will now be carried by the new Global 6000s.
There we have it: payloads, not platforms...that matter (the less important one still needs to be good enough)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Post by abc123 »

Timmymagic wrote:RC-135 is a fantastic capability, but you have to wonder if a ELINT Sentinel would have been a better buy in the long term. We could have had spare funds and crew to get an EW version like the Australians...

And in other news...

https://www.wsj.com/articles/bombardier ... 1580835712
:thumbup:
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

abc123
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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Post by abc123 »

SW1 wrote:Another country following a trend the RAF started years ago yet failed embrace properly.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... s-platform

Germany has finally abandoned its plans to acquire four Northrop Grumman MQ-4C Triton UAVs configured for signals intelligence (Sigint) at an estimated cost of $2.5 billion, after the U.S. Navy’s offer for the delivery of Triton aircraft expired in late December 2019. Instead, reports suggest that Germany will now procure three manned Bombardier Global 6000 special-mission aircraft, although no funding has yet been allocated.

Purchase of the Tritons was approved by the U.S. in 2018. The aircraft were intended to fly signals intelligence missions under the Persistent German Airborne Surveillance System (Pegasus) program and were to have been equipped with a Hensoldt ISIS-ZB Sigint sensor system derived from that originally designed by Airbus for the earlier, stillborn RQ-4E Euro Hawk. The same system will now be carried by the new Global 6000s.
Probably a cheaper solution too.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
SW1 wrote: the Tritons was approved by the U.S. in 2018.[and] The aircraft were intended to fly signals intelligence missions under the Persistent German Airborne Surveillance System (Pegasus) program and were to have been equipped with a Hensoldt ISIS-ZB Sigint sensor system derived from that originally designed by Airbus for the earlier, stillborn RQ-4E Euro Hawk. The same system will now be carried by the new Global 6000s.
There we have it: payloads, not platforms...that matter (the less important one still needs to be good enough)
Yeah there is so many options we could consider for pods that could be used by a number of aircraft types we have that could be of benefit.

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Post by Timmymagic »

SW1 wrote:Yeah there is so many options we could consider for pods that could be used by a number of aircraft types we have that could be of benefit.
It will be interesting to see if the DB110 sensors from RAPTOR ever see the light again..

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

Logic says the sensor is too good a capability to throw away, but when does logic have a bearing on the decisions of those in charge.

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Lord Jim wrote:Logic says the sensor is too good
... it is also too big ;) .

So why not put it onto the Hercs to be retained for SF support? France bought tanker kits for their SF-supporting Hercs (and has been toying with A2G missile fit, so that targets of opportunity could be engaged by a/c already in the area, rather than scrambling fast jets from some far-away base
... a little bit of creativity can't hurt 'too much'?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote: Lord Jim wrote:
Logic says the sensor is too good

... it is also too big .
To big in what sense?

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