Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 5657
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

abc123 wrote:
SW1 wrote:
abc123 wrote:
SW1 wrote:
Timmymagic wrote:
SW1 wrote:Deal as gd as done
Looks like it is. And for once we should all be grateful as this seems a very positive, cost neutral, increase in capability. A year ago we were facing a long drawn out upgrade of the E-3 fleet that had the potential, if we're honest, to be continually cut during its duration. Hell we'd have probably managed to upgrade them to the latest USAF standard just in time for them to go and procure a replacement.
I wish I shared your optimism, I think we’re making a mistake.
Can you elaborate please?
For a start there is a number of modern options out there all of which are flying so the risks involved in acquiring them is less. The most modern of them are the two biz jet options globaleye and Israeli options. The wedgetail was a program started in 2000 so it technology while upgraded over the years is much older that either the Saab or IAI radars. There has been a significant change in miniaturisation of tech over the last decade and the open architecture nature of smarter command systems.

The convertion of a large biz jet plane is now a known quantity and there is signifcant radar and esm systems within the UK that can be installed on these a/c should we wish to have even more uk content that on the existing platforms. It should also be noted that the radar system on the wedgetail has not been in production for a while. The other options are cheaper to buy and significantly cheaper to operate than a commercial airliner. This has to be a consideration given it has been thru life supt costs that have crippled the sentry awacs in that we simply haven’t allocated funds to keep it up to date. Will we simply be back at this point 10 years from now?

The only urgent rush to get this aircraft is that Boeing is ended 737-700 production soon. This leads to two problems either we would have to pay to integrate it into a different 737 with a completely different engine and systems to the legacy b737 or we would have to buy second hand airframes. The RAF likes to have all its base aircraft at the same airworthiness mod standard before starting conversion, so buying on the second hand market would likely mean either aircraft have mods applied to them or others de-moded to bring them to the same standard not impossible but will add cost.

There is much talk about commonality and a hope the US follows suit but this maybe misplaced the US has talked about and is starting to practise moving away from having high value single critical nodes to a more distributed air management system we seem to staying like for like. There is every possiblility they will move to something smaller than wedgetail and distribute its ISR capability across multiple platforms the very essence of moving to a UAV, F35,F22 future system in contested environments. It would be an irony if we went with wedgetail only for the US to announce it was moving to a biz jet style platform in about 5 years time like it is doing/planning with compass call, BACN and jstars ect and offboarding more of the manpower tasks to either AI or other platforms in the air or ground environment.

I will also add that Boeing as a company tried its very best to completely destroy a very significant part of this countries aircraft manufacturing capability playing up to trumps America first so it could produce and sell embrarer a/c in the US without a competitior. Not a trustworthy partner.
But, are they ( biz jets ) good enough? Especially because of air space battle managment?
Well they have up to 7 operators so why not, things change and we do things differently which each new a/c that comes into service. We didn’t operate Vulcan the same way we operated tornado or the way we will operate f35. Ultimate if we don’t have a budget to buy and fully support the capability we don’t have a capability.

abc123
Senior Member
Posts: 2900
Joined: 10 May 2015, 18:15
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by abc123 »

SW1 wrote:
abc123 wrote:
SW1 wrote:
abc123 wrote:
SW1 wrote:
Timmymagic wrote:
SW1 wrote:Deal as gd as done
Looks like it is. And for once we should all be grateful as this seems a very positive, cost neutral, increase in capability. A year ago we were facing a long drawn out upgrade of the E-3 fleet that had the potential, if we're honest, to be continually cut during its duration. Hell we'd have probably managed to upgrade them to the latest USAF standard just in time for them to go and procure a replacement.
I wish I shared your optimism, I think we’re making a mistake.
Can you elaborate please?
For a start there is a number of modern options out there all of which are flying so the risks involved in acquiring them is less. The most modern of them are the two biz jet options globaleye and Israeli options. The wedgetail was a program started in 2000 so it technology while upgraded over the years is much older that either the Saab or IAI radars. There has been a significant change in miniaturisation of tech over the last decade and the open architecture nature of smarter command systems.

The convertion of a large biz jet plane is now a known quantity and there is signifcant radar and esm systems within the UK that can be installed on these a/c should we wish to have even more uk content that on the existing platforms. It should also be noted that the radar system on the wedgetail has not been in production for a while. The other options are cheaper to buy and significantly cheaper to operate than a commercial airliner. This has to be a consideration given it has been thru life supt costs that have crippled the sentry awacs in that we simply haven’t allocated funds to keep it up to date. Will we simply be back at this point 10 years from now?

The only urgent rush to get this aircraft is that Boeing is ended 737-700 production soon. This leads to two problems either we would have to pay to integrate it into a different 737 with a completely different engine and systems to the legacy b737 or we would have to buy second hand airframes. The RAF likes to have all its base aircraft at the same airworthiness mod standard before starting conversion, so buying on the second hand market would likely mean either aircraft have mods applied to them or others de-moded to bring them to the same standard not impossible but will add cost.

There is much talk about commonality and a hope the US follows suit but this maybe misplaced the US has talked about and is starting to practise moving away from having high value single critical nodes to a more distributed air management system we seem to staying like for like. There is every possiblility they will move to something smaller than wedgetail and distribute its ISR capability across multiple platforms the very essence of moving to a UAV, F35,F22 future system in contested environments. It would be an irony if we went with wedgetail only for the US to announce it was moving to a biz jet style platform in about 5 years time like it is doing/planning with compass call, BACN and jstars ect and offboarding more of the manpower tasks to either AI or other platforms in the air or ground environment.

I will also add that Boeing as a company tried its very best to completely destroy a very significant part of this countries aircraft manufacturing capability playing up to trumps America first so it could produce and sell embrarer a/c in the US without a competitior. Not a trustworthy partner.
But, are they ( biz jets ) good enough? Especially because of air space battle managment?
Well they have up to 7 operators so why not, things change and we do things differently which each new a/c that comes into service. We didn’t operate Vulcan the same way we operated tornado or the way we will operate f35. Ultimate if we don’t have a budget to buy and fully support the capability we don’t have a capability.

One thing that bothers me: with range of these jets of say 10-12 000 km, can they, with their limited space, really use that to a full extent?
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 5657
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

abc123 wrote:
SW1 wrote:
abc123 wrote:
SW1 wrote:
abc123 wrote:
SW1 wrote:
Timmymagic wrote:
SW1 wrote:Deal as gd as done
Looks like it is. And for once we should all be grateful as this seems a very positive, cost neutral, increase in capability. A year ago we were facing a long drawn out upgrade of the E-3 fleet that had the potential, if we're honest, to be continually cut during its duration. Hell we'd have probably managed to upgrade them to the latest USAF standard just in time for them to go and procure a replacement.
I wish I shared your optimism, I think we’re making a mistake.
Can you elaborate please?
For a start there is a number of modern options out there all of which are flying so the risks involved in acquiring them is less. The most modern of them are the two biz jet options globaleye and Israeli options. The wedgetail was a program started in 2000 so it technology while upgraded over the years is much older that either the Saab or IAI radars. There has been a significant change in miniaturisation of tech over the last decade and the open architecture nature of smarter command systems.

The convertion of a large biz jet plane is now a known quantity and there is signifcant radar and esm systems within the UK that can be installed on these a/c should we wish to have even more uk content that on the existing platforms. It should also be noted that the radar system on the wedgetail has not been in production for a while. The other options are cheaper to buy and significantly cheaper to operate than a commercial airliner. This has to be a consideration given it has been thru life supt costs that have crippled the sentry awacs in that we simply haven’t allocated funds to keep it up to date. Will we simply be back at this point 10 years from now?

The only urgent rush to get this aircraft is that Boeing is ended 737-700 production soon. This leads to two problems either we would have to pay to integrate it into a different 737 with a completely different engine and systems to the legacy b737 or we would have to buy second hand airframes. The RAF likes to have all its base aircraft at the same airworthiness mod standard before starting conversion, so buying on the second hand market would likely mean either aircraft have mods applied to them or others de-moded to bring them to the same standard not impossible but will add cost.

There is much talk about commonality and a hope the US follows suit but this maybe misplaced the US has talked about and is starting to practise moving away from having high value single critical nodes to a more distributed air management system we seem to staying like for like. There is every possiblility they will move to something smaller than wedgetail and distribute its ISR capability across multiple platforms the very essence of moving to a UAV, F35,F22 future system in contested environments. It would be an irony if we went with wedgetail only for the US to announce it was moving to a biz jet style platform in about 5 years time like it is doing/planning with compass call, BACN and jstars ect and offboarding more of the manpower tasks to either AI or other platforms in the air or ground environment.

I will also add that Boeing as a company tried its very best to completely destroy a very significant part of this countries aircraft manufacturing capability playing up to trumps America first so it could produce and sell embrarer a/c in the US without a competitior. Not a trustworthy partner.
But, are they ( biz jets ) good enough? Especially because of air space battle managment?
Well they have up to 7 operators so why not, things change and we do things differently which each new a/c that comes into service. We didn’t operate Vulcan the same way we operated tornado or the way we will operate f35. Ultimate if we don’t have a budget to buy and fully support the capability we don’t have a capability.

One thing that bothers me: with range of these jets of say 10-12 000 km, can they, with their limited space, really use that to a full extent?
They can and they do. Paris to Tokyo in one go is one route. These aircraft aren’t small there 100ft long. They climb faster than a commercial a/c, fly higher so getting out of turbulent air quicker. There wings are more flexible allowing a more stable and smooth ride and there cabin pressurised to a lower altitude than a commercial aircraft allowing a better cabin environment.

abc123
Senior Member
Posts: 2900
Joined: 10 May 2015, 18:15
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by abc123 »

SW1 wrote:
abc123 wrote:
SW1 wrote:
abc123 wrote:
SW1 wrote:
abc123 wrote:
SW1 wrote:
Timmymagic wrote:
SW1 wrote:Deal as gd as done
Looks like it is. And for once we should all be grateful as this seems a very positive, cost neutral, increase in capability. A year ago we were facing a long drawn out upgrade of the E-3 fleet that had the potential, if we're honest, to be continually cut during its duration. Hell we'd have probably managed to upgrade them to the latest USAF standard just in time for them to go and procure a replacement.
I wish I shared your optimism, I think we’re making a mistake.
Can you elaborate please?
For a start there is a number of modern options out there all of which are flying so the risks involved in acquiring them is less. The most modern of them are the two biz jet options globaleye and Israeli options. The wedgetail was a program started in 2000 so it technology while upgraded over the years is much older that either the Saab or IAI radars. There has been a significant change in miniaturisation of tech over the last decade and the open architecture nature of smarter command systems.

The convertion of a large biz jet plane is now a known quantity and there is signifcant radar and esm systems within the UK that can be installed on these a/c should we wish to have even more uk content that on the existing platforms. It should also be noted that the radar system on the wedgetail has not been in production for a while. The other options are cheaper to buy and significantly cheaper to operate than a commercial airliner. This has to be a consideration given it has been thru life supt costs that have crippled the sentry awacs in that we simply haven’t allocated funds to keep it up to date. Will we simply be back at this point 10 years from now?

The only urgent rush to get this aircraft is that Boeing is ended 737-700 production soon. This leads to two problems either we would have to pay to integrate it into a different 737 with a completely different engine and systems to the legacy b737 or we would have to buy second hand airframes. The RAF likes to have all its base aircraft at the same airworthiness mod standard before starting conversion, so buying on the second hand market would likely mean either aircraft have mods applied to them or others de-moded to bring them to the same standard not impossible but will add cost.

There is much talk about commonality and a hope the US follows suit but this maybe misplaced the US has talked about and is starting to practise moving away from having high value single critical nodes to a more distributed air management system we seem to staying like for like. There is every possiblility they will move to something smaller than wedgetail and distribute its ISR capability across multiple platforms the very essence of moving to a UAV, F35,F22 future system in contested environments. It would be an irony if we went with wedgetail only for the US to announce it was moving to a biz jet style platform in about 5 years time like it is doing/planning with compass call, BACN and jstars ect and offboarding more of the manpower tasks to either AI or other platforms in the air or ground environment.

I will also add that Boeing as a company tried its very best to completely destroy a very significant part of this countries aircraft manufacturing capability playing up to trumps America first so it could produce and sell embrarer a/c in the US without a competitior. Not a trustworthy partner.
But, are they ( biz jets ) good enough? Especially because of air space battle managment?
Well they have up to 7 operators so why not, things change and we do things differently which each new a/c that comes into service. We didn’t operate Vulcan the same way we operated tornado or the way we will operate f35. Ultimate if we don’t have a budget to buy and fully support the capability we don’t have a capability.

One thing that bothers me: with range of these jets of say 10-12 000 km, can they, with their limited space, really use that to a full extent?
They can and they do. Paris to Tokyo in one go is one route. These aircraft aren’t small there 100ft long. They climb faster than a commercial a/c, fly higher so getting out of turbulent air quicker. There wings are more flexible allowing a more stable and smooth ride and there cabin pressurised to a lower altitude than a commercial aircraft allowing a better cabin environment.
I was thinking more about carryng enough crew to operate the systems and enough space for extra personell to relieve them, enough space for their rest, eating, toilet etc.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 5657
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

ABC

There’s space for the crew a rest area a toilet ect the aircraft is up for 11hrs if you want to, then replace the aircraft on station with another a/c.

This cutaway shows it with 5 operator stations.

https://u0v052dm9wl3gxo0y3lx0u44wz-wpen ... lEye-6.jpg

dmereifield
Senior Member
Posts: 2762
Joined: 03 Aug 2016, 20:29
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by dmereifield »

SW1 wrote:ABC

There’s space for the crew a rest area a toilet ect the aircraft is up for 11hrs if you want to, then replace the aircraft on station with another a/c.

This cutaway shows it with 5 operator stations.

https://u0v052dm9wl3gxo0y3lx0u44wz-wpen ... lEye-6.jpg
How many operator stations does the wedgetail have?

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 5657
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

Wedgetail can have up to 10 operators.

dmereifield
Senior Member
Posts: 2762
Joined: 03 Aug 2016, 20:29
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by dmereifield »

SW1 wrote:Wedgetail can have up to 10 operators.
Thanks

User avatar
shark bait
Senior Member
Posts: 6427
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Pitcairn Island

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by shark bait »

abc123 wrote:But, are they ( biz jets ) good enough? Especially because of air space battle managment?
It is an interesting question because we get told the 5th generation will be so situationally aware, and operating further ahead of the AWACS, that they will do a chunk of the management on their own.

At the same time we hear automation is reducing workload, as well as distributing and off-boarding systems becoming increasingly common. To that end I struggle to believe the same role could not be handled by a biz jet.

However that requires work and developing new procedures, where as I believe the RAF want a drop in replacement . If that's true there is only one option.
@LandSharkUK

User avatar
Halidon
Member
Posts: 539
Joined: 12 May 2015, 01:34
United States of America

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by Halidon »

SW1 wrote:
For a start there is a number of modern options out there all of which are flying so the risks involved in acquiring them is less. The most modern of them are the two biz jet options globaleye and Israeli options. The wedgetail was a program started in 2000 so it technology while upgraded over the years is much older that either the Saab or IAI radars. There has been a significant change in miniaturisation of tech over the last decade and the open architecture nature of smarter command systems.
The Swedish and Israeli radars are not, with some caveat depending on how you wish to define architecture "beginnings" and present operational state, of a substantially "newer" generation than NG's MESA. Both Phalcon and Erieye are very good lightweight alternatives that have had impressive upgrades along the way, but neither touches MESA's top-end advantages in range, tracking, or resolution. It would be a mistake, if not deceptive, to frame the comparison as "old" 737 AEW&C versus "new" alternatives. Cost, both up-front and recurring, versus capability is how this should be decided. Are the quite good and lower-cost alternatives good enough for the UK's needs, or does the UK need to take that step up to meet its requirements?
SW1 wrote: I will also add that Boeing as a company tried its very best to completely destroy a very significant part of this countries aircraft manufacturing capability playing up to trumps America first so it could produce and sell embrarer a/c in the US without a competitior. Not a trustworthy partner.
I'm not going to defend Boeing's dickishness over the CSeries or their embracing of a toxic Administration, but you're assigning the wrong motives to them and mixing up your timeline a bit. Boeing was defending it's 737 market when it was making like difficult for Airbus and Bombardier, and trying to avoid the cost of bringing a competitive 100-150 seater (either from scratch or via a partnership) to market. The Embraer deal, which I'll just throw in has not been the smoothest of rides, came when they realized they had been outmaneuvered by Airbus and that their ITC case wasn't likely to prevail.

They certainly weren't sitting in Chicago and plotting the destruction of anyone's industry, as with their aggressiveness everywhere else (including with their own home-state employees) it was their bottom line that they were worrying about. By that same token, Boeing buys and out-sources significantly in the non-American aviation industry, they're not interested in killing it and robbing themselves of that market any more than Airbus is interested in killing the US industry.

I've said before that Boeing can and likely will add more UK industrial share to their offering if that's what it takes to make the deal happen and ensure the UK is happy with it. On the other hand, if it were possible to make the deal happen with a "stock" 737 AEW&C hot off the line without having to spend anything to integrate more UK equipment, they'd love to do that. That's not about putting torpedoes into anyone else's boat, that's just chasing the bottom line.

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 5657
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

Halidon wrote:
SW1 wrote:
For a start there is a number of modern options out there all of which are flying so the risks involved in acquiring them is less. The most modern of them are the two biz jet options globaleye and Israeli options. The wedgetail was a program started in 2000 so it technology while upgraded over the years is much older that either the Saab or IAI radars. There has been a significant change in miniaturisation of tech over the last decade and the open architecture nature of smarter command systems.
The Swedish and Israeli radars are not, with some caveat depending on how you wish to define architecture "beginnings" and present operational state, of a substantially "newer" generation than NG's MESA. Both Phalcon and Erieye are very good lightweight alternatives that have had impressive upgrades along the way, but neither touches MESA's top-end advantages in range, tracking, or resolution. It would be a mistake, if not deceptive, to frame the comparison as "old" 737 AEW&C versus "new" alternatives. Cost, both up-front and recurring, versus capability is how this should be decided. Are the quite good and lower-cost alternatives good enough for the UK's needs, or does the UK need to take that step up to meet its requirements?
SW1 wrote: I will also add that Boeing as a company tried its very best to completely destroy a very significant part of this countries aircraft manufacturing capability playing up to trumps America first so it could produce and sell embrarer a/c in the US without a competitior. Not a trustworthy partner.
I'm not going to defend Boeing's dickishness over the CSeries or their embracing of a toxic Administration, but you're assigning the wrong motives to them and mixing up your timeline a bit. Boeing was defending it's 737 market when it was making like difficult for Airbus and Bombardier, and trying to avoid the cost of bringing a competitive 100-150 seater (either from scratch or via a partnership) to market. The Embraer deal, which I'll just throw in has not been the smoothest of rides, came when they realized they had been outmaneuvered by Airbus and that their ITC case wasn't likely to prevail.

They certainly weren't sitting in Chicago and plotting the destruction of anyone's industry, as with their aggressiveness everywhere else (including with their own home-state employees) it was their bottom line that they were worrying about. By that same token, Boeing buys and out-sources significantly in the non-American aviation industry, they're not interested in killing it and robbing themselves of that market any more than Airbus is interested in killing the US industry.

I've said before that Boeing can and likely will add more UK industrial share to their offering if that's what it takes to make the deal happen and ensure the UK is happy with it. On the other hand, if it were possible to make the deal happen with a "stock" 737 AEW&C hot off the line without having to spend anything to integrate more UK equipment, they'd love to do that. That's not about putting torpedoes into anyone else's boat, that's just chasing the bottom line.
On the first bit well unless your going to tell me the NG radar system has become a gallium nitride radar during its upgrade then I will consider the Saab and IAI newer and the Mesa older. If there so sure of the superiority of the Boeing product then they will have nothing to fear from an open competition. Hopefully the Boeing system can also be provided ITAR free.

I will however agree than thru life cost are ultimately the defining factor in what we should buy however the UK has an excellent track record of ensuring they write requirements for what they first thought off against what may well be required.

I will respectfully disagree that this was all to do with protecting the 737 line. They knew bombardier were looking for a partner/ someone to buy CSeries and attempted to drive bombardier to the wall so as not to allow a new generation product to be sold in an area of the market they didn’t have a product for until they cemented a firmer partnership with Embraer. They wanted to aggressively protect there domestic market while demanding free markets everywhere else. Boeing needs to be on the naughty step for uk defence contracts for some time in my opinion or make a heck of a offer to put design and manufacture into the uk to make up for there actions.

User avatar
Halidon
Member
Posts: 539
Joined: 12 May 2015, 01:34
United States of America

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by Halidon »

Northop is rolling out GaN upgrades to its radars right now. I don't know the timeline for a MESA GaN upgrade, but I imagine it's in the mix if a customer so desires. SAAB's GaN Erieye upgrade only dates to this summer, IAI/Elbit marketing can be a bit deceptive at times but their adoption of GaN in an actual service radar is also recent.

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 5657
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

Halidon wrote:Northop is rolling out GaN upgrades to its radars right now. I don't know the timeline for a MESA GaN upgrade, but I imagine it's in the mix if a customer so desires. SAAB's GaN Erieye upgrade only dates to this summer, IAI/Elbit marketing can be a bit deceptive at times but their adoption of GaN in an actual service radar is also recent.
This article from a couple years ago gives a gd overview of where Saab are with this tech.

http://m.aviationweek.com/defense/count ... aew-market

I take it that upgrade would be at further cost to the customer or is NG offering it for free. Would I be right in thinking that the mesa radar NG is offering on Wedgetail hasn’t been in production for a number of years?

User avatar
Halidon
Member
Posts: 539
Joined: 12 May 2015, 01:34
United States of America

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by Halidon »

I couldn't comment on possible GaN MESA pricing, there's no shortage of variables there to be accurate. I will point out that Northrop's G/ATOR had it's GaN antenna upgrade introduced during LRIP without significant cost or schedule spike. The first 6 units didn't have it, the 7th does, and the rest will.

User avatar
Ianmb17
Member
Posts: 145
Joined: 01 May 2015, 21:33
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by Ianmb17 »

Google maps picture
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 7314
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

I wonder how the airworthiness of the airframe on the far left is officially listed? In reserve?

Little J
Member
Posts: 973
Joined: 02 May 2015, 14:35
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by Little J »

Imagine the sales ad if the E-7's replace the E-3's...

One careful owner, good condition, T & T'd to the end of the month, never raced nor rallied :silent: :D

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7249
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by Ron5 »

Lord Jim wrote:I wonder how the airworthiness of the airframe on the far left is officially listed? In reserve?
High speed prototype.

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 5657
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

Saab’s submittion to defence committee on future awacs requirements

https://www.parliament.uk/documents/com ... -17-19.pdf

Saab offered full classified details of erieye proformance to both air command and de&s both parties refused to take delivery of the data. Therefore no proper analysis of the competition was undertaken.

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 7314
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

Very interesting and should muddy the waters a bit. It will also help the MoD in its exploratory talks with Boeing regarding the E-7 with the latter realising there is a genuine alternative out there.

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 5657
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

Lord Jim wrote:Very interesting and should muddy the waters a bit. It will also help the MoD in its exploratory talks with Boeing regarding the E-7 with the latter realising there is a genuine alternative out there.
LJ

That only holds true if the customer isn’t falling over itself to buy the a/c that Boeing is selling. If you were an MP would you push for MoD to have an increased budget if this is indicative of how they chose to spend it.

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 7314
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

Yes if they got the best deal for both the RAF and Tax Payer. Competition for competition's sake is in some ways worse due to the inherent cost of running a competition just to begin with.

User avatar
RichardIC
Senior Member
Posts: 1371
Joined: 10 May 2015, 16:59
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by RichardIC »

From a contracting point-of-view Boeing have got the only product that is available off-the-shelf. It is therefore not unreasonable to enter into single source negotiations with them over price and delivery etc.

At the conclusion of exclusive negotiations with Boeing, once they have offered terms, that would be the time to go to competitors and say, "We need X capability by Y in-service-date". And ask for costs, risk mitigation factors etc..

Fact is, Saab have never integrated their systems onto an A330 however much they protest. Will they (and Airbus) meet the cost of development, will they bare the full burden of risk, can they they deliver on time? What level of contract penalty are they prepared to meet if delivery slips?

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 7314
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

To be able to deliver in the same timeframe, SAAB basically need to get started on integrating their systems on an A330 now.

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 5657
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

Boeing do not have anything! Wedgetail has been out of production for 5 years.

Saab have a product flying in build now if they wanted to buy new a/c. There offering to integrate on a330 so as the RAF doesn’t not need to buy any new a/c.

It isn’t competition for competition sake the MPs are clearly already angry that a sole source contract is being given to a company that 6 months ago tried to destroy a major uk manufacturing industry. When alternatives exist when they’ve been deliberately told they didn’t.

Post Reply