Airbus A330 Voyager (MRTT) (RAF)

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Defiance
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Re: Airbus A330 Voyager (MRTT) (RAF)

Post by Defiance »

Brasil wrote:Brazil recently announced the acquisition of 2 A330. I believe they will come from the AirTanker fleet. One of them has already come to a demonstration in 2019.
From the press i've read nobody really knows exactly where they come from although it's unlikely to come from AirTanker. They're more likely to be second hand A330 to be converted to MRTT standard.

It's not even a given they will be converted into MRTT, most of the public domain discussion focusses entirely on the strategic transport role

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Airbus A330 Voyager (MRTT) (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Defiance wrote: not even a given they will be converted into MRTT, most of the public domain discussion focusses entirely on the strategic transport role
Their own (more of the Herc size class) jet can work in a tanker role; why incur the extra cost
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Brasil
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Re: Airbus A330 Voyager (MRTT) (RAF)

Post by Brasil »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Defiance wrote: not even a given they will be converted into MRTT, most of the public domain discussion focusses entirely on the strategic transport role
Some journalists who are more intimate with the Brazilian Air Force say they are from AirTanker. They even say that there are 2 with the option of 1 more. What we can do is wait for the official pronouncement.
ArmChairCivvy wrote: Their own (more of the Herc size class) jet can work in a tanker role; why incur the extra cost
Tactic transporter/tanker (KC-390) and strategic transporter/tanker (A330). Different capabilities. These A330s also come to support the Gripen that arrive this year.

Greetings!

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Airbus A330 Voyager (MRTT) (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Admittedly a vast airspace to patrol
... does Venezuela still have an airforce? Some sources say that it was their purchase of Russian jets that up'ped the ante on the continent
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Defiance
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Re: Airbus A330 Voyager (MRTT) (RAF)

Post by Defiance »

Brasil wrote: Some journalists who are more intimate with the Brazilian Air Force say they are from AirTanker. They even say that there are 2 with the option of 1 more. What we can do is wait for the official pronouncement.
Care to share a source? All of the press i've read (infodefensa and fly-news.es) is pure speculation pretty much based on 'but Bolsonaro didn't say they weren't from AirTanker'. I would welcome a source which had some actual evidence that this could be the case beyond press musings

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Jensy
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Re: Airbus A330 Voyager (MRTT) (RAF)

Post by Jensy »

Just seen this:

https://www.scramble.nl/military-news/b ... rbus-a330s
On Thursday 28 January 2021, President Jair Bolsonaro anounced that two Airbus A330s will be obtained for the Força Aérea Brasileira (FAB, Brazil Air Force).

The source of these was not disclosed nor is it clear whether these A330s are to be leased or bought.
Scramble can be a little rough round the edges but often gets very good early insight too. They mention a long-range transport requirement but nothing about an aerial refueling capability.

Still, there's no shortage of low-hour airliners going on the market at the moment.

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Re: Airbus A330 Voyager (MRTT) (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

I would doubt there is much/any of a civil market for airtankers 4 white tails at present. Maybe a deal has been done

Clive F
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Re: Airbus A330 Voyager (MRTT) (RAF)

Post by Clive F »

May be we have said to Airtanker you can lease them to someone else if we have more flexibility to use other kit (eg A400) or countries kit without penalty?

Brasil
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Re: Airbus A330 Voyager (MRTT) (RAF)

Post by Brasil »

Defiance wrote: Care to share a source? All of the press i've read (infodefensa and fly-news.es) is pure speculation pretty much based on 'but Bolsonaro didn't say they weren't from AirTanker'. I would welcome a source which had some actual evidence that this could be the case beyond press musings
In the international media it will be difficult to find news until the FAB official pronouncement. I recommend some Brazilian defense especializated press.

https://www.defesaaereanaval.com.br/avi ... a-aeronave
https://www.defesaaereanaval.com.br/avi ... 0-para-fab
https://www.aereo.jor.br/2021/01/29/con ... -pela-fab/
https://tecnodefesa.com.br/fab-e-o-airb ... t-entenda/

But I agree with you that it is too early to say anything. I put this point here because there is a great possibility that they are AirTanker aircraft.

For me, any A330F is wellcome. We lost the strategic transport capacity with the retirement of 707/767 :cry:

Little J
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Re: Airbus A330 Voyager (MRTT) (RAF)

Post by Little J »

Without looking at those links, is it possible airtanker are lending them a plane or 2 until their own aircraft are converted?

Dahedd
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Re: Airbus A330 Voyager (MRTT) (RAF)

Post by Dahedd »

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/royal-famil ... -spending/


Ohh ffs really. Such bad reporting.

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SKB
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Re: Airbus A330 Voyager (MRTT) (RAF)

Post by SKB »

^ I think someone at the Telegraph needs to be taught what the R in RAF stands for. :roll:

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Re: Airbus A330 Voyager (MRTT) (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

https://www.raf.mod.uk/news/articles/ra ... -partners/

Under the banner of BABELFISH 7, the Royal Air Force’s Rapid Capabilities Office (RCO) has demonstrated new technologies which offer a step-change in near real time, secure, information distribution. Working in collaboration with industry partners, Airbus and AirTanker, and utilising the NEXUS Data Platform and RAVEN virtual Communications Node, this new system enables intelligence to be drawn from a variety of sources, whether it be from space, an Intelligence Surveillance Reconnaissance (ISR) aircraft, a ship at sea or land-based system, and processed to provide a combined intelligence picture of hitherto unrivalled detail in near real time.

To best illustrate the new technology, Capability Directors from all three Armed Services, and representatives from across other Government Departments, were invited on-board an RAF Voyager, the RAF’s Multi Role Tanker Transport aircraft, for a demonstration event.

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Re: Airbus A330 Voyager (MRTT) (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

This is interesting, and if we move forward with this it is a rare case where we actually have spare airframes available if needed if you take into account those currently in chartered use.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Airbus A330 Voyager (MRTT) (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

I read something about the USAF trying out a push mode for battle space information: where do you push it all to, for it to be collated, analysed, and used for decisions/ commands? Once you go in distances beyond what the earth's curvature dictates, then there are challenges (HF, Link 22, satellites... what have you; they will all 'cost')
- and now I can't find it (to see if it is a parallel to what we are discussing here)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Lord Jim
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Re: Airbus A330 Voyager (MRTT) (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

Just had a thought, regarding BABELFISH 7, surely this alters the Air Tanker contract. If it can be done for this what about other changes lie fitting an upper cargo door or even a Boom on some of the fleet.

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Jensy
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Re: Airbus A330 Voyager (MRTT) (RAF)

Post by Jensy »



Further talk of Brazil taking a couple of MRTTs for their air force. Their defence ministry has authorised the procurement of two aircraft, without a competition:

https://www.infodefensa.com/latam/2021/ ... aerea.html

Still not clear if they're going to be from us, though the article strongly suggests that an offer was made by the UK, for two Voyagers, at a clearly competitive price.

Even if this comes out of the surge fleet (which the airline industry is hardly desperate for at the moment), it is yet another cut to the RAF's air transport fleet, following the BAe-146s and C-130s.

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Re: Airbus A330 Voyager (MRTT) (RAF)

Post by SW1 »


Lord Jim
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Re: Airbus A330 Voyager (MRTT) (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

Air Tanker have had a good run but I believe it is time to scrap the current programme and buy a number of the Voyagers outright. We are not getting the most out of the platform and it could be providing so much more to the RAF then it already does. Simple have a large Cargo Door for the upper deck and having that reconfigurable would make a big difference. But most useful would be the addition of a boom, not just to refuel out Globemasters, E-7s and P-8s but also NATOs growing fleet of F-35As and such like.

This would also allow the RAF to seriously consider utilising the Atlas's AAR capability, they are all plumbed for doing this, to allow the refuelling of our Merlins and Chinooks, as well as providing AAR in places like the Falklands. This may also make it preferable to purchase up to six additional Atlas, and this plus the improvements to the Voyagers would greatly increase our airlift capability, which is going to be more important as we have more forces forward deployed.

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Re: Airbus A330 Voyager (MRTT) (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

The MoD controls the configuration of the voyager aircraft and there is nothing to stop the RAF using the a400m aar capability if it wants too.

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Re: Airbus A330 Voyager (MRTT) (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

Are you sure?

topman
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Re: Airbus A330 Voyager (MRTT) (RAF)

Post by topman »

Merely a matter of money.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Airbus A330 Voyager (MRTT) (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

SW1 wrote:there is nothing to stop the RAF using the a400m aar capability if it wants too.
France uses Herc (kits) to AAR their special forces helos. We have gone for max range as the solution, but the Herc option is soon going to go away... then the A-400M will be the only remaining alternative
- I believe that we, like them, have both configured some KingAirs as flying ISR&Command posts as they have more persistance and allow the helicopter element to fly in and straight out (=use their max range)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Airbus A330 Voyager (MRTT) (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

France will switch there helicopter aar to a400m probably next year. But for us it’s all about money as topman mentioned. For a number of reasons I would of made the air transport fleet central to the defence review but that didn’t happen.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Airbus A330 Voyager (MRTT) (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

SW1 wrote:France will switch there helicopter aar to a400m probably next year.
While that is happening, the three kits for the Hercs were for a joint sqdrn that supports not just theirs but the German SF
- despite the fact that the sqdrn's base is in France, I see a degree (3 is not a lot) of parallelism remaining
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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