UK Defence Forum

Timmymagic wrote:There are still thousands of L variants in stock

You don't say!

One day (when I don't have to study Brazilian navy prgrms) I will get to read the project appendices explaining why Brimstone's overall assessment in 2016 (we don't have the next one, yet) was half "Red". RE: " give an indication of how soon the RAF and the Army believe that Brimstone 2 will take over as the main missile on Protector and Apache."

Typhoon

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/raf- ... first-time

Is Brimstone an export failure and why? Too expensive?

Appears on UK, Germany and KSA are using it. The missile doesn't seem to be selling well with Eurofighter operators, who are perhaps sticking with Maverick missiles? Or none at all?

It seems in a potential NATO conflict involving armour, we couldn't rely on many allies providing an upto date capability.

RunningStrong wrote: ↑03 Dec 2021, 10:39 Is Brimstone an export failure and why? Too expensive?

Appears on UK, Germany and KSA are using it. The missile doesn't seem to be selling well with Eurofighter operators, who are perhaps sticking with Maverick missiles? Or none at all?

It seems in a potential NATO conflict involving armour, we couldn't rely on many allies providing an upto date capability.

maverick isnt cleared on typhoon. Only the newer software variants of typhoon have brimstone so I suspect most have nothing but i think more Middle East operators will buy it.

Why it’s not sold more I suspect few countries want to spend money integrating it on other types and manufacturers of other aircraft probably don’t want to either as they have there own missiles to sell.

SW1 wrote: ↑03 Dec 2021, 10:57

RunningStrong wrote: ↑03 Dec 2021, 10:39 Is Brimstone an export failure and why? Too expensive?

Appears on UK, Germany and KSA are using it. The missile doesn't seem to be selling well with Eurofighter operators, who are perhaps sticking with Maverick missiles? Or none at all?

It seems in a potential NATO conflict involving armour, we couldn't rely on many allies providing an upto date capability.

maverick isnt cleared on typhoon. Only the newer software variants of typhoon have brimstone so I suspect most have nothing but i think more Middle East operators will buy it.

Why it’s not sold more I suspect few countries want to spend money integrating it on other types and manufacturers of other aircraft probably don’t want to either as they have there own missiles to sell.

The Wikipedia page needs updating then!

In contrast, the Meteor is integrated on EF, Rafael and Grippen.

We have not integrated Brimstone onto our drones or Apaches, hardly a ringing endorsement when we continent to buy hellfire for these platforms.

RunningStrong wrote: ↑03 Dec 2021, 13:38

SW1 wrote: ↑03 Dec 2021, 10:57

RunningStrong wrote: ↑03 Dec 2021, 10:39 Is Brimstone an export failure and why? Too expensive?

Appears on UK, Germany and KSA are using it. The missile doesn't seem to be selling well with Eurofighter operators, who are perhaps sticking with Maverick missiles? Or none at all?

It seems in a potential NATO conflict involving armour, we couldn't rely on many allies providing an upto date capability.

maverick isnt cleared on typhoon. Only the newer software variants of typhoon have brimstone so I suspect most have nothing but i think more Middle East operators will buy it.

Why it’s not sold more I suspect few countries want to spend money integrating it on other types and manufacturers of other aircraft probably don’t want to either as they have there own missiles to sell.

The Wikipedia page needs updating then!

Or you could consider using more reliable sources

Jdam wrote: ↑03 Dec 2021, 13:43 We have not integrated Brimstone onto our drones or Apaches, hardly a ringing endorsement when we continent to buy hellfire for these platforms.

Worse than that, also signing up for the Hellfire replacement that directly competes with Brimstone. Dumbest decision for some time from a place brimming with dumb decisions.

Ron5 wrote: ↑03 Dec 2021, 13:57 Or you could consider using more reliable sources

You mean like the Eurofighter website which only lists Spear as air to ground.

I know you're a bit daft at times, but try not to make it too obvious.

https://www.eurofighter.com/advantages

RunningStrong wrote: ↑03 Dec 2021, 13:38

SW1 wrote: ↑03 Dec 2021, 10:57

RunningStrong wrote: ↑03 Dec 2021, 10:39 Is Brimstone an export failure and why? Too expensive?

Appears on UK, Germany and KSA are using it. The missile doesn't seem to be selling well with Eurofighter operators, who are perhaps sticking with Maverick missiles? Or none at all?

It seems in a potential NATO conflict involving armour, we couldn't rely on many allies providing an upto date capability.

maverick isnt cleared on typhoon. Only the newer software variants of typhoon have brimstone so I suspect most have nothing but i think more Middle East operators will buy it.

Why it’s not sold more I suspect few countries want to spend money integrating it on other types and manufacturers of other aircraft probably don’t want to either as they have there own missiles to sell.

The Wikipedia page needs updating then!

In contrast, the Meteor is integrated on EF, Rafael and Grippen.

Yes but meteor was a Anglo, German, French Sweden collaborative program, brimstone was a U.K. only program.

You never know, with the threat form nation states increasing, the original reasoning behind Brimstone may once again become a more valid reason for it. It is a class leader and combat proven, we just need a F-16 operator to decide to integrated it and sales could take off, a lot of "Coulds", I know, but as a stand off anti armour weapon it is probably the beast out there.

It might well be but we should be leading the way and using it on everything we can, this would give confidence to other to invest in it as well.

RunningStrong wrote: ↑03 Dec 2021, 10:39 Appears on UK, Germany and KSA are using it. The missile doesn't seem to be selling well with Eurofighter operators, who are perhaps sticking with Maverick missiles? Or none at all?

Germany don't use it. They've been thinking of using it for years but have never bit the bullet.

Current operators are UK and Saudi. Kuwait and Qatar are buying it for their Typhoon. Ukraine appears to be nailed on and I suspect Poland will buy it in due course.

The issue appears to be simple. Despite their repeatedly seen utility in warfare not many nations actually employ smaller munitions from fast air. Even the SDB1, a very sensible weapon, cheaper than Paveway munitions and in many ways more useful has not managed to get huge export sales, and its integrated on loads and loads of platforms....And none apart from Brimstone users have a small munition with advanced targeting capabilities. In many ways Brimstone is decades ahead of its time...I suspect the real benefit from Brimstone will be the development and sales that we get from Spear...

Timmymagic wrote: ↑05 Dec 2021, 13:51

RunningStrong wrote: ↑03 Dec 2021, 10:39 Appears on UK, Germany and KSA are using it. The missile doesn't seem to be selling well with Eurofighter operators, who are perhaps sticking with Maverick missiles? Or none at all?

Germany don't use it. They've been thinking of using it for years but have never bit the bullet.

Current operators are UK and Saudi. Qatar is buying it for their Typhoon. Ukraine appears to be nailed on and I suspect Poland will buy it in due course.

The issue appears to be simple. Despite their repeatedly seen utility in warfare not many nations actually employ smaller munitions from fast air. Even the SDB1, a very sensible weapon, cheaper than Paveway munitions and in many ways more useful has not managed to get huge export sales, and its integrated on loads and loads of platforms....And none apart from Brimstone users have a small munition with advanced targeting capabilities. In many ways Brimstone is decades ahead of its time...I suspect the real benefit from Brimstone will be the development and sales that we get from Spear...

I suspect potential buyers use up all their budget on the sexy aircraft with munitions left out in the cold. Or maybe they just want fighters.

Ron5 wrote: ↑05 Dec 2021, 14:45 I suspect potential buyers use up all their budget on the sexy aircraft with munitions left out in the cold. Or maybe they just want fighters.

Arguably the investment in lower-yield weapons in the West has been driven by the need to provide accurate effects while keeping collatoral damage to a minimum in a COIN environment.

Maybe it's an ROE/experience problem which plenty of nations haven't had to face for decades, so they don't see the point ... yet

Defiance wrote: ↑05 Dec 2021, 16:11

Ron5 wrote: ↑05 Dec 2021, 14:45 I suspect potential buyers use up all their budget on the sexy aircraft with munitions left out in the cold. Or maybe they just want fighters.

Arguably the investment in lower-yield weapons in the West has been driven by the need to provide accurate effects while keeping collatoral damage to a minimum in a COIN environment.

Maybe it's an ROE/experience problem which plenty of nations haven't had to face for decades, so they don't see the point ... yet

Didn't the French just use Laser Guided inert practice rounds in Libya?

RunningStrong wrote: ↑05 Dec 2021, 17:04 Didn't the French just use Laser Guided inert practice rounds in Libya?

They could well have done, i'd be curious to know how much the guidance kits cost for the bombs cost though. Sounds like one of those capabilities that sounds cheap but in retrospect isn't.

Defiance wrote: ↑05 Dec 2021, 17:57

RunningStrong wrote: ↑05 Dec 2021, 17:04 Didn't the French just use Laser Guided inert practice rounds in Libya?

They could well have done, i'd be curious to know how much the guidance kits cost for the bombs cost though. Sounds like one of those capabilities that sounds cheap but in retrospect isn't.

Some sources put the guidance kit at just $25,000.

RunningStrong wrote: ↑05 Dec 2021, 19:19 Some sources put the guidance kit at just $25,000.

Not bad really.

Defiance wrote: ↑05 Dec 2021, 20:04

RunningStrong wrote: ↑05 Dec 2021, 19:19 Some sources put the guidance kit at just $25,000.

Not bad really.

There's a lot to be said for inert ordinance that's not an AP dart. A 40mm GMG prac round would seriously mess up a car, and I believe there's talk of using CT40 inert training round as a "war" round for similar reasons.

RunningStrong wrote: ↑05 Dec 2021, 20:24 There's a lot to be said for inert ordinance that's not an AP dart. A 40mm GMG prac round would seriously mess up a car, and I believe there's talk of using CT40 inert training round as a "war" round for similar reasons.

I recall reading that CR2 used practice HESH rounds in Iraq as a fin round would just over penetrate and a live HESH would knock the building down. The practice round was filled with concrete so tended to disintegrate within the first room or so past the wall hit.

mr.fred wrote: ↑05 Dec 2021, 21:51

RunningStrong wrote: ↑05 Dec 2021, 20:24 There's a lot to be said for inert ordinance that's not an AP dart. A 40mm GMG prac round would seriously mess up a car, and I believe there's talk of using CT40 inert training round as a "war" round for similar reasons.

I recall reading that CR2 used practice HESH rounds in Iraq as a fin round would just over penetrate and a live HESH would knock the building down. The practice round was filled with concrete so tended to disintegrate within the first room or so past the wall hit.

I was told differently, but by no means verifiably by IFV crewmen, that real HESH was perfect for going though mud compound walls.

Similarly, I've been told an AS90 can direct-fire an inert round that would give a tank crew more than a headache if things got particularly messy. But I'm unaware that such a round exists.

Anyway, we've digressed into a conversation on low- budget, low-collateral options...

The RAF has repeatedly used "Concrete" Paveways in the past, mainly its older 1000lb ones.

One other reason for the lack of Brimstone sales is that nations often by weapon packages when they purchase a new aircraft so anyone buying an F-15, F-16 or F-35 wouldn't have Brimstone as a result. Those countries that have the Tornado or Eurofighter had that option. The US rejecting it due to the common "Not Invented/Built Here" syndrome even though some of the services liked it a lot.

Defiance wrote: ↑05 Dec 2021, 16:11 Arguably the investment in lower-yield weapons in the West has been driven by the need to provide accurate effects while keeping collatoral damage to a minimum in a COIN environment.

Maybe it's an ROE/experience problem which plenty of nations haven't had to face for decades, so they don't see the point ... yet

There is truth in that. The UK and US have dropped lots of munitions over the last 17 years (and beyond) so see the value in smaller, lower collateral munitions. But both the UK and US have also recognised that numbers of munitions carried by a single platform can be a huge force multiplier. You would have thought that other, smaller, air arms would have recognised this as well. More bangs per sortie for them...which matters when you're only putting a few aircraft over target each day. For me the surprise is that more have not bought the SDB1 rather than Brimstone. SDB1 is small, penetrating, long range (comparatively) to keep you out of harms way and actually dirt cheap as precision guided munitions go. There's a pretty strong case for the UK to buy it in my mind...1/3rd of the price of Paveway IV...

Timmymagic wrote: ↑06 Dec 2021, 07:53

Defiance wrote: ↑05 Dec 2021, 16:11 Arguably the investment in lower-yield weapons in the West has been driven by the need to provide accurate effects while keeping collatoral damage to a minimum in a COIN environment.

Maybe it's an ROE/experience problem which plenty of nations haven't had to face for decades, so they don't see the point ... yet

There is truth in that. The UK and US have dropped lots of munitions over the last 17 years (and beyond) so see the value in smaller, lower collateral munitions. But both the UK and US have also recognised that numbers of munitions carried by a single platform can be a huge force multiplier. You would have thought that other, smaller, air arms would have recognised this as well. More bangs per sortie for them...which matters when you're only putting a few aircraft over target each day. For me the surprise is that more have not bought the SDB1 rather than Brimstone. SDB1 is small, penetrating, long range (comparatively) to keep you out of harms way and actually dirt cheap as precision guided munitions go. There's a pretty strong case for the UK to buy it in my mind...1/3rd of the price of Paveway IV...

Probably the UK "rejecting it due to the common "Not Invented/Built Here" syndrome even though some of the services liked it a lot"