UK Defence Forum

Jdam wrote:
Also I seem to remember that Brimstone was meant to be put onto our Apaches when we first got them yet it never happen any reason why?

UKGov doesn't know what to do with the Apache, they are reaching the end of their lives but there is a big question mark over what will happen once they reach the end of flying hours. Considering how stupidly long and expensive it is to integrate a new weapon onto an existing frame there is a chance the current Apaches would be scrapped before the missiles are ready to be used with it.

Jdam wrote:It just seems ridiculous that we haven't integrated this weapon onto a few different platform

It really does. We do need to fix that, especially if we expect to export these weapons we need to show a bit of confidence in them first, and stop buying the American alternative, it doesn't make for a good sales pitch.

UK Gov has never understood scales of economy, every single defence project is hit by it.

From guns to destroyers it's always the same cycle, make less and less of them, watch as costs on the remaining go up due to R+D and tooling costs being condensed on the remaining and in turn the chances of foreign sales die off. They have just done the same with the T26 as 13 has become 8 and any chance of sales has died with it.

Watch as they trip over themselves in shock and disgust whenever the cost of an item goes up because they reduced the production numbers and scuppered sales.

shark bait wrote: It really does. We do need to fix that, especially if we expect to export these weapons we need to show a bit of confidence in them first, and stop buying the American alternative, it doesn't make for a good sales pitch.

"Buy Brimstone its that good we currently only have it operational on one aircraft"

Surely given the large sales potential of the F-35 having it integrated early would give a good chance of sales and even if it didn't the UK would get a lot of use of out of it.

WhiteWhale wrote:
UKGov doesn't know what to do with the Apache, they are reaching the end of their lives but there is a big question mark over what will happen once they reach the end of flying hours. Considering how stupidly long and expensive it is to integrate a new weapon onto an existing frame there is a chance the current Apaches would be scrapped before the missiles are ready to be used with it.

We are trying to order the remanufacture of our existing fleet, seems like a good time to upgrade them to Brimstone.

Jdam wrote:WhiteWhale wrote:

UKGov doesn't know what to do with the Apache, they are reaching the end of their lives but there is a big question mark over what will happen once they reach the end of flying hours. Considering how stupidly long and expensive it is to integrate a new weapon onto an existing frame there is a chance the current Apaches would be scrapped before the missiles are ready to be used with it.


We are trying to order the remanufacture of our existing fleet, seems like a good time to upgrade them to Brimstone.

That will be 2 bn, thank you. I wonder if we will tag onto the US Army order and save enough to get Brimstone thrown into the deal (within budget)?

There was a comment earlier about reaching the end of flying hours. I very much doubt that this will be the constraint, but rather it is the end of support for the systems and electronics (a good sales strategy!).
- it may seem odd that Apache is known to be quite a hangar queen... for a field - maintainable piece of kit! But the field maintainability is only provided by the "sealed box" approach to the many more complicated parts of the overall system

ArmChairCivvy wrote:

Jdam wrote:WhiteWhale wrote:

UKGov doesn't know what to do with the Apache, they are reaching the end of their lives but there is a big question mark over what will happen once they reach the end of flying hours. Considering how stupidly long and expensive it is to integrate a new weapon onto an existing frame there is a chance the current Apaches would be scrapped before the missiles are ready to be used with it.


We are trying to order the remanufacture of our existing fleet, seems like a good time to upgrade them to Brimstone.

That will be 2 bn, thank you. I wonder if we will tag onto the US Army order and save enough to get Brimstone thrown into the deal (within budget)?

There was a comment earlier about reaching the end of flying hours. I very much doubt that this will be the constraint, but rather it is the end of support for the systems and electronics (a good sales strategy!).
- it may seem odd that Apache is known to be quite a hangar queen... for a field - maintainable piece of kit! But the field maintainability is only provided by the "sealed box" approach to the many more complicated parts of the overall system

Decision on the AH64E has been made, the only further consideration is either new build or upgrade and zero hour the current fleet. Main gate decision is to be made in months.

Tinman wrote: the only further consideration is either new build or upgrade and zero hour the current fleet

Thanks, I thought so
- is the quantity still open? For instance, 64 (63?) if remanufactured and 50 if bought new
- or, is it the 2 bill, and quantity follows from the terms negotiated?

Main Gate was supposed to come in March this year. Hope the very generic "months not years" does not equate to delaying that target.

Maingate will infect be March this year, it will be 50 cabs, 110 engines, 60 Dass suites.

Hopeful new build along with a consolation order for a dozen new Merlin to AW.

Thought something like that could work for an LLM / Brimstone combination, but then I remembered that would break our rules about only using weapons on a single platform.

cheaper than i was expecting, what kind of stocks to we hold?

80 thousand each by my math

Footage of first Brimstone firing on AH-64E. Interesting note from the Boeing engineer in the description.

Given that our fast jet numbers are low, I wonder if the powers that be might realise that given how cheap the AH-64E is compared to the Typhoon and F-35, that we might purchase more to equip a third AAC regiment, to provide effective ground support for the Army.

Brimstone is a world beater and the US military would be buying it if they could but US companies would tie any contract up in the courts for years even if a production line was established and they did already have weapons that cover some of Brimstones capabilities. However if we DO fit it to our Apaches there may be a slim chance the US Army may do so as might the US Marines on their Zulus.

I always think these kind of things should be worked into our contracts with DoD for big equipment purchases. The Americans certainly aren't going to buy our kit out of the kindness of their heart, so make a business case for it, "we'll invest billions with your industry if you offset some of that value added back into our industry".

Brimstone would be a strong candidate, as would CAMM for the LCS.

Brimstone would be a strong candidate, as would CAMM for the LCS.

Brimstone was the best candidate in many years, but i say "was" because that ship has kind of sailed at this point. The UK did not deliver the killer blow when the US clone, the JAGM, was about to be killed off in budget cuts. Now that it is progressing, it is almost certainly over. A gigantic wasted opportunity.
It would have been a win--win for both countries, but it is set to once more end in wheels being re-invented at great cost instead.

By the looks of things, Brimstone 2 has finally been confirmed for integration on the new Predator-B UCAVs: http://www.c4isrnet.com/articles/uk-sel ... ish-drones

At long last!

~UNiOnJaCk~ wrote:At long last!

See how these Americans cannot get their grammar right:
"successfully completed a series of trial firings on MQ-9 Reaper during early 2014 that saw the weapon engaging 70 mile-per-hour and maneuvering targets with extreme precision from the RPAS; unmatched by any other weapon since"

http://www.mbda-systems.com/press-relea ... ctor-rpas/

MBDA's link

Thankfully, the word eventually in the original Predator story didn't inspire confidence but I glad to see this.

^ 12 Brimstone and a couple of Paveways in that computer generated image. A hell of a lot more potent that the current reapers, that's for sure!

Also, note in the article a passage on AH-64E integration.

Still doesn't sound like a 100% done deal:

" if agreed , the missile will be integrated and fielded in line with the Platform’s introduction to service"

Yes, i'd say there is something of a question mark over the whole thing still, but it at least seems to be moving in the right direction with a bit of momentum this time. Fingers crossed.

If this Brimstone 2 integration happens it will be interesting in a naval environment. As I understand the missile range from a 50k ft launch should be 40-60km? So if a naval unit cannot engage 50k ft target at 50km it will be vunerable to a salvo of 12 missiles. Interesting?

If those figures are correct, it is verry interesting as in the base level naval AD missiles their ceiling is the most limiting factor. The reasoning has been that if you can detect the threat early enough (being high up) then you will have a good chance for downing the arrow, if not shooting the archer
- good luck with a salvo of 12!

A bit like the Russian fighter tactics: fire a mixed salvo of IR and radar-guided missiles, so even if countermeasures for one type are effective, the job will still get done