UK Defence Forum

Ron5 wrote: ↑06 Dec 2021, 15:37 Probably the UK "rejecting it due to the common "Not Invented/Built Here" syndrome even though some of the services liked it a lot"

To be fair its not integrated on Typhoon...

I'd prefer that we ordered SpearGlide and a 'SpearSimple' version from MBDA, keep leveraging that investment in Spear, expand the product lineup. But apart from those parochial views... I personally think there is a strong case for ordering JDAM and SDB1 for the UK's F-35. No integration costs, and a couple of cheaper munitions than PWIV or Spear, including a heavier munition than PWIV for internal carriage (in the case of the GBU-32). SDB1 isn't integrated on Typhoon, but Laser JDAM (NOT GPS) will be integrated by the German's from 2021-24. It does appear to be cheaper than Paveway (and less capable in terms of range)...but I'm not sure if its cheap enough to justify the extra effort. The German's are going down that route as Diehl has a licensing arrangement and they have a stockpile of 1,500 bombs bought for Tornado.

Yes I know one of my familiar Typos!! Of course I meant the USA.

Timmymagic wrote: ↑06 Dec 2021, 16:04

Ron5 wrote: ↑06 Dec 2021, 15:37 Probably the UK "rejecting it due to the common "Not Invented/Built Here" syndrome even though some of the services liked it a lot"

To be fair its not integrated on Typhoon...

I'd prefer that we ordered SpearGlide and a 'SpearSimple' version from MBDA, keep leveraging that investment in Spear, expand the product lineup. But apart from those parochial views... I personally think there is a strong case for ordering JDAM and SDB1 for the UK's F-35. No integration costs, and a couple of cheaper munitions than PWIV or Spear, including a heavier munition than PWIV for internal carriage (in the case of the GBU-32). SDB1 isn't integrated on Typhoon, but Laser JDAM (NOT GPS) will be integrated by the German's from 2021-24. It does appear to be cheaper than Paveway (and less capable in terms of range)...but I'm not sure if its cheap enough to justify the extra effort. The German's are going down that route as Diehl has a licensing arrangement and they have a stockpile of 1,500 bombs bought for Tornado.

I'm sure the Mod/MBDA special arrangement (forgot its name) plays into this somehow. As it should.

And maybe that deal plays into the US rejection of Brimstone e.g. you didn't allow us to complete for that requirement so we're not going to let you compete for ours. Tit for tat.

Ron5 wrote: ↑07 Dec 2021, 17:34 And maybe that deal plays into the US rejection of Brimstone e.g. you didn't allow us to complete for that requirement so we're not going to let you compete for ours. Tit for tat.

Eh, I can forgive them for that. Considering how many Hellfire have been fired off in the last 40-ish years the US, or Lockheed at least, would be bonkers to not develop it further.

Defiance wrote: ↑07 Dec 2021, 18:40

Ron5 wrote: ↑07 Dec 2021, 17:34 And maybe that deal plays into the US rejection of Brimstone e.g. you didn't allow us to complete for that requirement so we're not going to let you compete for ours. Tit for tat.

Eh, I can forgive them for that. Considering how many Hellfire have been fired off in the last 40-ish years the US, or Lockheed at least, would be bonkers to not develop it further.

I thought that's what Brimstone is - a development of Hellfire. Hellfire and Brimstone

From what I can see, LM's new weapon is basically a clone of Brimstone, not just one that has similar capabilities, though I think Brimstone is still more capable. It is just unfortunate that the British Army didn't back Brimstone for its AH-64E Helicopter, probably scuppering any chance of exporting the weapon to other Apache users. I just hope they do adopt a ground launched version to provide the over watch capability needed on both Ajax and Boxer, assuming the former actually enters service. Read the article in the Australia thread below to get the latest on that platform.

SD67 wrote: ↑08 Dec 2021, 19:51 I thought that's what Brimstone is - a development of Hellfire. Hellfire and Brimstone

That's my point. Lockheed developed a brilliant missile they've exported far and wide for years, all of a sudden they're supposed to just roll over and let a European manufacturer become the lead provider to the US for an updated system?

MBDA might manufacture in the US, but it's still MBDA IP and MBDA balance sheets orders would fill out rather than Lockheed balance sheets and Lockheed IP.

@Lord Jim, that's broadly my understanding as well but if you think of it in relation to Hellfire rather than Brimstone it makes more sense from a technology development point of view.

Lockheed is getting contracted to generate an updated design, with new sub-systems, with total US control of IP and free to export to whomever they want. They have a sizable list of Hellfire customers so they'll probably start there.

Defiance wrote: ↑09 Dec 2021, 08:32 That's my point. Lockheed developed a brilliant missile they've exported far and wide for years, all of a sudden they're supposed to just roll over and let a European manufacturer become the lead provider to the US for an updated system?

I think when most people are talking about the US not purchasing Brimstone its mainly regarding its deployment from Fast Air....something that Hellfire and JAGM still can't do...

Timmymagic wrote: ↑09 Dec 2021, 09:36 I think when most people are talking about the US not purchasing Brimstone its mainly regarding its deployment from Fast Air....something that Hellfire and JAGM still can't do...

That only matters if the US has a requirement for a Hellfire-class weapon to be deployed by fast air.

SDB II coming online probably weakens the case, meanwhile they've got hundreds of Apaches, Cobras, Predators and Reapers that could more immediately benefit from a Hellfire upgrade.

Certainly doesn't help that we abandoned Brimstone for our own Apache fleet.

Defiance wrote: ↑09 Dec 2021, 11:10 That only matters if the US has a requirement for a Hellfire-class weapon to be deployed by fast air.

They do, both the JCM and JAGM were designed to be used by Fast Air...JAGM integration on platforms is still in the distant future though.

Yes one of the Missiles to be replaced is the ubiquitous Maverick, which is in widespread use around the world including of course the three US services using fast air. The way things are developing new aircraft are going to be more and more sold in packages and this is going to create a divide between US and European sourced platforms and munitions. Therefore Europe needs to develop a fully catalogue of munitions for every role to match the USA or it will lose further sales to the US. Of course there will still be exceptions like Japan and South Korea who will still build indigenous platforms and will pick the best weapon for each roll, but they will add their own indigenous weapons to the mix as well.

We have a good start with probably what are currently the best Air to air missiles on the market with ASRAAM, Meteor and Iris-T, and with SPEAR in development, Brimstone and the various French modular weapons and not forgetting Strom Shadow and in future FC/ASW, but unfortunately these tend to be more expensive than their US equivalents. To improve the situation European Armed Forces should where possible use european sources weapons, so the UK not purchasing Brimstone for the Apache Guardian is a mistake in my opinion considering how many countries in Europe alone use the Apache at the moment. We also have the Paveway IV, which I believe is manufactured in the UK and was designed for the RAF, its manufacturer is American. To replace it maybe we should look to a non powered SPEAR or adopt the curret French modular weapon used on the Rafale which seems very good at its job, though I cannot remember its name for the life of me.

Timmymagic wrote: ↑09 Dec 2021, 17:58 They do, both the JCM and JAGM were designed to be used by Fast Air...JAGM integration on platforms is still in the distant future though.

They did, but the USN and USMC abandoned the program in 2012 to pursue SDB II in its place. They only rejoined JAGM after the program was gutted and reorganised by the Army to meet their requirement alone to cut cost and risk.

They could probably upgrade JAGM to be fast-air capable down the line, but it doesn't appear to have been a priority for the last few years.

Lord Jim wrote: ↑10 Dec 2021, 05:52 Yes one of the Missiles to be replaced is the ubiquitous Maverick, which is in widespread use around the world including of course the three US services using fast air.

Maybe as a headline, but in reality Maverick isn't really seen that often these days as its getting long in the tooth. The Army scrubbed most of the fast-air requirements in 2014 when the USN/USMC abandoned the program, it's safe to say the 'Maverick replacement' item is a legacy holdover from JCM/early JAGM days.

Lord Jim wrote: ↑10 Dec 2021, 05:52 To replace it maybe we should look to a non powered SPEAR or adopt the curret French modular weapon used on the Rafale which seems very good at its job, though I cannot remember its name for the life of me.

They are developing a unpowered Spear, its called SpearGlide. Other spiral developments are on the way...I've said this many times, but a 'SpearSimple' with a choice of GPS/INS or a SAL seeker head would make sense, use the same form factor for easy integration and give it some penetration capability and we get an SDB1 equivalent. Which helps to 'round out' the Spear family line up with a cheap,mid and high option, with Spear-EW as the novel capability. Stick a cheap E/O package in the front of Spear-EW in place of the EW payload and you get a cheap recon drone out to 300+ miles as well...

The French modular weapon I believe you're referring to is the AASM Hammer. We should avoid that like the plague....its managed to deliver a Paveway style capability at around 8 times the cost.....

Europe has a lot of exquisite capabilities in guided munitions, as you say there is a very good case to say that Europe has the leading air to air munitions (Japan is up there as well, lets not discount China either), particularly in relation to the US who seem to have to dropped the ball a little. But 'cheap' munitions seems to be a complete blindspot. The US has addressed this with JDAM, APKWS, SDB1 and, to a lesser extent, Hellfire. Smaller munitions seem to be a blind spot as well, lots of good concepts (Fury, Enforcer et al) but they get little traction in the European market.

Kremlin claims it could blow up all the US 32 GPS satellites with its new ASAT as tested a few weeks ago on 15th Nov when it demonstrated its capability by blowing up an old Soviet era Tselina D satellite.

Why would you develop new missiles that relied on or partially relied on GPS for targeting, US Army investing since 2016 in its alternative Positioning, Navigation and Timing (PNT) for operation when in GPS degraded or denied environment, no easy answers, Quantum navigation perhaps?

https://rntfnd.org/2021/11/30/russia-is ... gps-world/

https://breakingdefense.com/2021/10/arm ... or-battle/

(Forces News) 22nd April 2021

The UK is sending Brimstone missiles to Ukraine. The weapon is usually launched from a fast jet - but in this instance they're set to be fired from land directed towards targets at sea.

Sounds like an odd choice to me.

Land launched brimstone would be useful in UK service. Surprised it's described as not a long range missile. Rotary launch is supposedly 40km, so scrub even 30% for land launch and it's still a great range for Overwatch.

Brimstone, could be intergrated on Type 26/31 in the future, to provide protection against small craft.

Anthony58 wrote: ↑23 Apr 2022, 18:29 Brimstone, could be intergrated on Type 26/31 in the future, to provide protection against small craft.

Sea Venom already serves that purpose.

RunningStrong wrote: ↑23 Apr 2022, 18:38 Sea Venom already serves that purpose.

It only serves that purpose if the ship has a Wildcat available its in the air and is fitted with Sea Venom. Hardly a 24/7 capability.

whitelancer wrote: ↑23 Apr 2022, 21:57

RunningStrong wrote: ↑23 Apr 2022, 18:38 Sea Venom already serves that purpose.

It only serves that purpose if the ship has a Wildcat available its in the air and is fitted with Sea Venom. Hardly a 24/7 capability.

In the same way that Brimstone would have previously required you to have a Typhoon on hand...

MBDA have already stated they are looking at a surface -launched version.

RunningStrong wrote: ↑24 Apr 2022, 06:58 In the same way that Brimstone would have previously required you to have a Typhoon on hand...

Which was rather my point.

Wildcat with Sea Venom or LMM is good, giving the capability to engage targets at distance. However it cant be guaranteed to be available when required, a shipborne system gives you 24/7 capability, (in theory at least).

RunningStrong wrote: ↑24 Apr 2022, 06:58

whitelancer wrote: ↑23 Apr 2022, 21:57

RunningStrong wrote: ↑23 Apr 2022, 18:38 Sea Venom already serves that purpose.

It only serves that purpose if the ship has a Wildcat available its in the air and is fitted with Sea Venom. Hardly a 24/7 capability.

In the same way that Brimstone would have previously required you to have a Typhoon on hand...

MBDA have already stated they are looking at a surface -launched version.

MBDA Brimstone image fairly recent 2019, think Spear image maybe five years old, in a Mk41 VLS cell.

NickC wrote: ↑24 Apr 2022, 13:36 MBDA Brimstone image fairly recent 2019

You'll notice that is the same frame (that suspends a 3 round Brimstone aircraft rack) that was used in the Brimstone Sea Spear trial off the coast of Wales.

Its a pity the MOD cant or wont take full advantage of Brimstones capabilities. Doing so would improve its sustainability, cost effectiveness, export potential and do a little bit for the economy to boot.

whitelancer wrote: ↑24 Apr 2022, 12:11

RunningStrong wrote: ↑24 Apr 2022, 06:58 In the same way that Brimstone would have previously required you to have a Typhoon on hand...

Which was rather my point.

Wildcat with Sea Venom or LMM is good, giving the capability to engage targets at distance. However it cant be guaranteed to be available when required, a shipborne system gives you 24/7 capability, (in theory at least).

Agreed that it's a necessary capability. But why wouldn't we fund the adoption of an existing Navy missile system in the role to have commonality? Do we need the anti-armour capabilities of Brimstone in the role?