UK Defence Forum

Inside Britain's £5.5 billion military disaster

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/1 ... -disaster/

But there were problems. The MoD wanted to jam a whole raft of new features and tech into the old Ascod hull. Indeed, according to the National Audit Office (NAO), the MoD added a total of 1,200 ‘requirements’ even though both they and GD ‘did not fully understand some components’ specifications or how they would [fit]’. The biggest change of all was to come on top of the vehicle – where the 30mm cannon of the Ascod II was to be exchanged for a far heavier 40mm gun.

According to the NAO, the 1,200 changes were the subject of confusion and discord between the MoD and GD. The result was delay, and a vehicle that was neither tried and tested like an off-the-shelf purchase, nor truly bespoke. What was clear was that every change added complexity and, above all, weight to Ajax. Scimitar weighs around 7.8 tonnes. Ajax now tips the scales at over 40 tonnes. As Francois has put it, what was commissioned as a reconnaissance vehicle is now a giant that is ‘as stealthy as a Ford Transit full of spanners’.

The following really comes to the core of the issue - the UK MOD is incapable of working with UK industry to built new platforms - but always looking for a cheap option on the basis of "market efficiency". Looks like the RAF managed to put their foot down and insist on it being done right..

The route to avoiding cock-ups in future seems apparent: work with industry on projects as they develop, so that problems are identified early on – as the RAF is doing with the BAE-led consortium behind its next-generation combat jet, Tempest.

>>As always -the problem is the UK MOD that takes a proven design and attempts to gold plate it - causing an overall failure of the procurement programme...

TheLoneRanger wrote: ↑16 Oct 2022, 14:19 >>As always -the problem is the UK MOD...

Fixed that paragraph for you

Scimitar II, which AJAX replaces, is nearer 12 tons. Based on the Scorpion vehicle that started life at circa 8t. A 50% increase (including a new hull) over the original design. Not forgetting the CVR(T) fleet all received new diesel engines too.

What is constantly forgotten in all this is survivability. Everyone hailed the arrival of the Foxhound (and wider UOR fleet) replacing LR Wolf because of the IED impact on UK troops. And yet no one questions how a 1.5t LR was replaced by a 7.5t foxhound...

RunningStrong wrote: ↑16 Oct 2022, 20:28 Scimitar II, which AJAX replaces, is nearer 12 tons.

Funnily enough, a point that I tried to make some time ago, but was told by assorted "experts" on the forum that I was wrong and that original Scimitar weighed 12 tonnes.

Never mind.

Would worry folks , with the expected efficiency savings new chancellor going to inflict on the MOD ,think Ajax might be cut , leaving troops to reconnaissance by means of on foot and hand held toy drones or if lucky electronic quiet quad bikes for stealth lol

inch wrote: ↑17 Oct 2022, 05:02 Would worry folks , with the expected efficiency savings new chancellor going to inflict on the MOD ,think Ajax might be cut

It does sound like they are laying the ground work for it.

inch wrote: ↑17 Oct 2022, 05:02 Would worry folks , with the expected efficiency savings new chancellor going to inflict on the MOD ,think Ajax might be cut , leaving troops to reconnaissance by means of on foot and hand held toy drones or if lucky electronic quiet quad bikes for stealth lol

Why did people post this ignorant BS?

British Army continue to use the Jackal/Coyote as a recce vehicle, and have reportedly made a purchase of additional platforms only recently.

Isn't there a new hybrid variant of Jackal/Coyote in testing, as well, to improve fuel efficiency and stealth

Caribbean wrote: ↑17 Oct 2022, 09:51 Isn't there a new hybrid variant of Jackal/Coyote in testing, as well, to improve fuel efficiency and stealth

Plus armoured recce units are moving to Warrior as a stop gap

Caribbean wrote: ↑17 Oct 2022, 09:51 Isn't there a new hybrid variant of Jackal/Coyote in testing, as well, to improve fuel efficiency and stealth

Yes. Jackal, Foxhound and Mastiff all used as hybrid demonstrators. Also reduces engine loads and brake wear.

It does look like Ajax is almost certain to be cut but for the legal wrangling as the MOD will effectively lose £4bn they have already paid to GDLS.
It looks like Jeremy has all but scrapped the 3% uplift, if that is the case is the only option to literally use Boxer for everything?

Where does AJAX go next? Many, if not all the hulls are already made. Perhaps Ukraine gets a stripped out version...

Some wag on twitter was joking about helping Ukraine by donating them to Russia

If Warrior is being used as a stopgap, why can't WR2 be brought back from the dead and be a more permanent successor?

Ajax is done, time to kill it for good

Commons written answers 17th Oct :-

https://questions-statements.parliament ... 0-10/59010

Luke jones wrote: ↑18 Oct 2022, 10:06 If Warrior is being used as a stopgap, why can't WR2 be brought back from the dead and be a more permanent successor?

Ajax is done, time to kill it for good

Because WCSP has many of it's own issues...

jonas wrote: ↑18 Oct 2022, 10:46 Commons written answers 17th Oct :-

https://questions-statements.parliament ... 0-10/59010

Yeah, that doesn't sound particularly promising for it.

If you can develop a recce module for Boxer, then do it. Surely you could fit all the kit in Ajax into a Boxer module.

It shouldn't be too difficult to create a Mission Module using the turret form Ajax if that was desired. That would incorporate many of the sensors that were to be carried by Ajax and using a spacious Mission Module would allow additional space to be used for additional systems if so desired. A simpler solution could also be sought using a Mission Module already developed with minor alterations such as that from the Australian CVR Boxer with its Lance turret with auto cannon and ATGWs.

Lord Jim wrote: ↑18 Oct 2022, 16:54 It shouldn't be too difficult to create a Mission Module using the turret form Ajax if that was desired. That would incorporate many of the sensors that were to be carried by Ajax and using a spacious Mission Module would allow additional space to be used for additional systems if so desired. A simpler solution could also be sought using a Mission Module already developed with minor alterations such as that from the Australian CVR Boxer with its Lance turret with auto cannon and ATGWs.

I guess it's only half about the turret and as much about the networked electronic signal processing architecture, but yeah would totally agree it could and should be put on a Boxer module (and chuck in those turret mounted ATGWs)

Lord Jim wrote: ↑18 Oct 2022, 16:54 A simpler solution could also be sought using a Mission Module already developed with minor alterations such as that from the Australian CVR Boxer with its Lance turret with auto cannon and ATGWs.

Is the Lockheed Martin Ajax\Warrior CTA 40 turret not based on LANCE technology licensed from Rheinmetall?

tomuk wrote: ↑18 Oct 2022, 19:25

Lord Jim wrote: ↑18 Oct 2022, 16:54 A simpler solution could also be sought using a Mission Module already developed with minor alterations such as that from the Australian CVR Boxer with its Lance turret with auto cannon and ATGWs.

Is the Lockheed Martin Ajax\Warrior CTA 40 turret not based on LANCE technology licensed from Rheinmetall?

AJAX is a lance turret, Warrior is not.

Assuming cancellation, does this mean we now have 500 turrets / CTA40 systems sitting around without a home?

Pillboxes in Ukraine? Maginot Line v2.0?

Ajax turrets on a boxer module for recce (or maybe CV90). Warrior turrets on a boxer module (or a 6 x 6 like Patria) for IFV

Just a thought

SD67 wrote: ↑19 Oct 2022, 13:42 Assuming cancellation, does this mean we now have 500 turrets / CTA40 systems sitting around without a home?

Pillboxes in Ukraine? Maginot Line v2.0?

No. The British MOD ordered circa 500 CT40 cannons split between AJAX and Warrior.

AJAX has 245 turrets variants, many of which are probably built or in a state of build.

Warrior never went to production contract and majority vehicles gone to scrap.

Fixed defences are vulnerable.

Ajax continues…
https://questions-statements.parliament ... 20/hcws332