Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Contains threads on British Army equipment of the past, present and future.
seaspear
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Re: Scout SV Armoured Vehicle Variants (Army)

Post by seaspear »

With the BMP3 having a 100 mm canon and the ability to be equipped with anti tank rockets and protected by two layers of reactive armour why would the Scout SV have the measure of this type of vehicle

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Scout SV Armoured Vehicle Variants (Army)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

That is an infantry support gun that has been given an anti-tank option (The UAE, interestingly fitted their AMVs with that turret).

The question is still valid, what is happening with the overwatch thinking as far as the operating with Scouts goes?
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~UNiOnJaCk~
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Re: Scout SV Armoured Vehicle Variants (Army)

Post by ~UNiOnJaCk~ »

seaspear wrote:With the BMP3 having a 100 mm canon and the ability to be equipped with anti tank rockets and protected by two layers of reactive armour why would the Scout SV have the measure of this type of vehicle
Most likely, and without meaning to sound condescending, because the CT40 has been demonstrated (AFAIK) to be able to punch through 140mm + of RHA at combat range (1.5KM at a 30 degree slope IIRC)?? Place anything within 1KM, or under, of the CT40 and you can probably expect it to be chewing through 200mm or more of RHA. That combined with superior inherent optics, supplemented by the fact that the vehicle is itself equipped with a comprehensive ISTAR package means it will have the advantage when it comes to seeing and then engaging its targets. The BMP-3 isn't even in the same class. I'm wholly confident it is much the same story for the new Kurganets-25 as well - not overly exceptional Western IFV development standards (i.e broadly follows a pattern/road Western manufacturers have travelled since the Bradley, if not before). As i said a few pages back, the only machine that can hold a candle to the Scout is the SpZ Puma and i very much doubt we will ever be fighting those - unless a GCC state splurges more cash on glitzy toys only to turn rogue in the future.

That said, theoretically speaking the two such machines should really not be meeting one another all that often other than occasions where the Scout is charged with over-watch. Essentially, it is a tad misdirected to directly compare the BMP-3 (etc etc etc) with the Scout as whilst similar from a mechanical/basic design theory POV they are in fact machines designed for very different roles - one's an IFV whereas the other is a track mobile, combat/direct action capable ISTAR and Recon platform.

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Re: Scout SV Armoured Vehicle Variants (Army)

Post by Ron5 »

Wouldn't the Scouts primary role be to call in other assets (air, arty) to deal with any unexpected opposition that it couldn't handle?

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Re: Scout SV Armoured Vehicle Variants (Army)

Post by Tony Williams »

ArmChairCivvy wrote: The other avenue is supershot for beefing up the many, many Bushmasters in service. Dutch Gvmnt stood for the purchase of the ammo for firing tests (in the US) so I bet they are quite close to adapting the upgrade. They did away with their tanks completely at first; Then lately brought back a squadron, which is so little that it probably only counts as a realistic OpFor on exercises.
To clarify - there are two different projects here:

40 mm "Super 40" or S40 - the 30mm Bushmaster II round necked up to 40 mm; not in the same league as the 40 mm CTWS or the 40 mm Bofors. This is being actively marketed by Orbital ATK.

50 mm "Supershot" - the 35 mm Oerlikon round necked up to 50 mm; originally developed by Rheinmetall in the 1980s, this has been dormant since the end of the Cold War, although it has recently been mentioned as a possible upgrade to the few 35 mm Bushmaster III in service (Dutch and Danish CV9035).

Two photos from my web article on Light AFV guns and ammo:

Image

20x139 APDS (HS 820, US M139, NEXTER 20M693, Rh 202), 20x141 APDS (NEXTER 20M693), 23x152B HEI (Soviet 2A14 - Denel version), 25x137 APDS (Oerlikon KBA, M242 Bushmaster, NEXTER 25M811), 25x137 APFSDS (Oerlikon KBA, M242 Bushmaster, NEXTER 25M811), 30x165 AP (Russian 2A42, 2A72), 30x170 APDS (Rarden L21A1), 30x173 APFSDS (Bushmaster II / MK44, Mauser MK30), 30x210B HE (Zastava M86/89), 40x180 HE (Super 40), 40x255 APFSDS (CTWS)

Image

40x255 APFSDS (CTWS ), 35x228 APDS (Oerlikon KDE, Bushmaster III), 50x330 APFSDS (sectioned 50mm Supershot ), 40x364R HE (Bofors L/70, Bushmaster IV), 57x347SR HE (Russian AU-220M), 60x410R APFSDS (IMI / OTO 60mm)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Scout SV Armoured Vehicle Variants (Army)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Thanks Tony,

This is a year old (the last slide talks about the future, which may or may not have arrived by now)

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2014armaments/ ... eFante.pdf

The smaller "supershot" upgrade increases turret intrusion only by 2 cm, but there are no metrics given for the bigger one... obviously more, because turret design/ redesign is one of the activities listed.

From different sources, the number of CT guns required for French recce wagons seems to be the same as for our Scouts (except that the Warrior upgrade doubles our number). I wonder if there are only three confirmed platforms, so far, for the use of that gun (and the ammo, which is where the economies of scale will materialise... or not)?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

RetroSicotte
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Re: Scout SV Armoured Vehicle Variants (Army)

Post by RetroSicotte »

There is every likelihood that the French will add a fourth vehicle sometime in the mid-future. The VBCI has been demoing the CT40 as a replacement for the 25mm.

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jonas
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Re: Scout SV Armoured Vehicle Variants (Army)

Post by jonas »

Q
Asked by Sir Nicholas Soames
(Mid Sussex)
Asked on: 15 July 2015
Ministry of Defence
Armoured Fighting Vehicles
7271
To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, if he will take steps to establish a Scout specialist vehicle assembly line in the UK; and if he will make a statement.
A
Answered by: Mr Philip Dunne
Answered on: 21 July 2015

The Ministry of Defence is currently considering an unsolicited proposal from General Dynamics for an extension to the existing initial in-service support arrangements for the Scout Specialist Vehicle during its manufacture period. This extension might result in General Dynamics Land Systems UK taking the decision to transfer some vehicle assembly to the UK.

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Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicle Variants (Army)

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bobp
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Re: Scout SV Armoured Vehicle Variants (Army)

Post by bobp »

Good news for those involved in Wales. Should have been done from the start.

marktigger
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Re: Scout SV Armoured Vehicle Variants (Army)

Post by marktigger »

yeap good news hopefully they will expand the buy and re armour some of the recce regts.

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The Armchair Soldier
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Re: Scout SV Armoured Vehicle Variants (Army)

Post by The Armchair Soldier »



Will this mean we can say we have a tank building industry again? :mrgreen:

RetroSicotte
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Re: Scout SV Armoured Vehicle Variants (Army)

Post by RetroSicotte »

Well, Scout isn't a tank so... :P

[/Tanknerd pickiness]

It's fantastic news though.

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Gabriele
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Re: Scout SV Armoured Vehicle Variants (Army)

Post by Gabriele »

Not really because "assembling" and producing is not quite the same thing. It is a step forwards still. But we'll see how much work is actually done in Wales. Much will depend on the state of the hulls as they arrive from Spain. If "assembly" is no more than mating hull and turret and little else, it won't be decisive in long-term industrial capability terms.
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Ron5
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Re: Scout SV Armoured Vehicle Variants (Army)

Post by Ron5 »

There's bits and pieces coming from all over the place. I'd hazard a guess that assembly will be more than a token affair. Then there's testing & QA.

I think this was in the original bid from GD for all of them (i.e. assembly in the UK) when the number was a thousand or more. It's only when the order shrunk to the current 500 that GD said they couldn't maintain their unit price unless basic chassis were built in Spain. I think final fitout of electronics including turret fitting was never going to be done there.

One dumb question: if the variant with the 40mm gun turret is for scouting, what's the reconnaissance version with the RWS for? Is scouting different from reconnaissance?

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Gabriele
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Re: Scout SV Armoured Vehicle Variants (Army)

Post by Gabriele »

Ron5 wrote:There's bits and pieces coming from all over the place. I'd hazard a guess that assembly will be more than a token affair. Then there's testing & QA.

I think this was in the original bid from GD for all of them (i.e. assembly in the UK) when the number was a thousand or more. It's only when the order shrunk to the current 500 that GD said they couldn't maintain their unit price unless basic chassis were built in Spain. I think final fitout of electronics including turret fitting was never going to be done there.

One dumb question: if the variant with the 40mm gun turret is for scouting, what's the reconnaissance version with the RWS for? Is scouting different from reconnaissance?
The Scout basically replaces Scimitar. The APC version replaces Spartan, which is used to carry small teams of dismounts for on-foot scouting; and Javelin missile teams for the Guided Weapon Troops within cavalry regiments. Each squadron is probably going to have 12 Scout with 40 mm and 4 APCs.
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marktigger
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Re: Scout SV Armoured Vehicle Variants (Army)

Post by marktigger »

so we're probably looking C3 will have similar numbers to sultan and recovery will have similar numbers to samson we just need an ambi now to replace samaritan

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Re: Scout SV Armoured Vehicle Variants (Army)

Post by Ron5 »

Gabriele wrote:
Ron5 wrote:There's bits and pieces coming from all over the place. I'd hazard a guess that assembly will be more than a token affair. Then there's testing & QA.

I think this was in the original bid from GD for all of them (i.e. assembly in the UK) when the number was a thousand or more. It's only when the order shrunk to the current 500 that GD said they couldn't maintain their unit price unless basic chassis were built in Spain. I think final fitout of electronics including turret fitting was never going to be done there.

One dumb question: if the variant with the 40mm gun turret is for scouting, what's the reconnaissance version with the RWS for? Is scouting different from reconnaissance?
The Scout basically replaces Scimitar. The APC version replaces Spartan, which is used to carry small teams of dismounts for on-foot scouting; and Javelin missile teams for the Guided Weapon Troops within cavalry regiments. Each squadron is probably going to have 12 Scout with 40 mm and 4 APCs.
Thank you.

jonas
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Re: Scout SV Armoured Vehicle Variants (Army)

Post by jonas »

We keep being told that Scout SV is going to be the 'eyes and ears' for the army on the battlefield. My question is, due to the cuts what are they going to be the 'eyes and ears' for. ;)

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/125- ... ttish-jobs

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The Armchair Soldier
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Re: Scout SV Armoured Vehicle Variants (Army)

Post by The Armchair Soldier »

Rheinmetall Signs Up for British Scout SV Turret Deal
LONDON — Rheinmetall has become the latest supplier to declare it has signed a production contract as part of the program to equip the British Army with a new family of Scout specialist vehicles.

The German company said it had signed a 130 million euro (US $142 million) deal with turret prime Lockheed Martin UK to supply up to 245 units for the reconnaissance version of the Scout vehicle.

The turret structures, known as the citadel, are scheduled to be delivered to Lockheed Martin's Ampthill factory near London where they will be assembled and integrated alongside other systems and components .
Read More: http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /31051579/

seaspear
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Re: Scout SV Armoured Vehicle Variants (Army)

Post by seaspear »

Next to that link to Rheinmetal is a very interesting article concerning Russia's use of electronic warfare in Ukraine that a U.S general described as eye watering and admitted U.S forces would also struggle in that environment, worth a read

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Re: Scout SV Armoured Vehicle Variants (Army)

Post by marktigger »

how useful would their drones be?

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Re: Scout SV Armoured Vehicle Variants (Army)

Post by mr.fred »

seaspear wrote:Next to that link to Rheinmetal is a very interesting article concerning Russia's use of electronic warfare in Ukraine that a U.S general described as eye watering and admitted U.S forces would also struggle in that environment, worth a read
Doesn't show up for me.
http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /30913397/
this the one?

seaspear
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Re: Scout SV Armoured Vehicle Variants (Army)

Post by seaspear »

Thats the one and I would suggest it,s not just the U.S army who could learn .

~UNiOnJaCk~
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Re: Scout SV Armoured Vehicle Variants (Army)

Post by ~UNiOnJaCk~ »

Looks like we are due to get our first view of Scout at DSEI 2015 next week. Very much looking forward to seeing it: http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/b ... v-10025524

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