Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Contains threads on British Army equipment of the past, present and future.
mr.fred
Senior Member
Posts: 1487
Joined: 06 May 2015, 22:53
United Kingdom

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by mr.fred »

SD67 wrote: 09 Apr 2023, 06:48 A) I don’t have a fantasy fleet
Sure you do; it's the fleet of RBSL re-engineered Ajax rather than the more common CV90, but still...
SD67 wrote: 09 Apr 2023, 06:48 D) Getting back to the key point - as of now No Vehicles Have Been Accepted. ( the 20 are training only). “ 90% completion “ is like “90% legality. “
Ordering bespoke is different from ordering off-the-shelf, and there are plenty of things you pay for before you receive anything. Even with off- the-shelf, there is a delay between money down and goods arriving*.

I wouldn't want to claim that the contract with GD is a good example of how to procure anything, it obviously isn't, but demanding retroactive change isn't necessarily going to make it better. Use it as a cautionary tale of how to do things differently next time, but don't think you can rip it all up and do better this time.

On a similar vein, how many trains have run on HS2, how many Type26 are in service? How many Challenger 3?

* Granted, some arrangements do allow for credit

SD67
Senior Member
Posts: 1127
Joined: 23 Jul 2019, 09:49
United Kingdom

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by SD67 »

On HS2 I’m in total agreement. Should have been build operate transfer with a third party developer taking the risk

On t26 my understanding is payment in the manufacturing phase is on completion of each unit. Exception - GFE procured directly. Ie same deal as Astute.

Bear in mind that a frigate is slightly bigger than an AFV so the challenge of managing that cash flow is far greater.

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5670
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by Tempest414 »

SD67 wrote: 09 Apr 2023, 09:42 On HS2 I’m in total agreement. Should have been build operate transfer with a third party developer taking the risk

On t26 my understanding is payment in the manufacturing phase is on completion of each unit. Exception - GFE procured directly. Ie same deal as Astute.

Bear in mind that a frigate is slightly bigger than an AFV so the challenge of managing that cash flow is far greater.
I would have said managing cash flow across 8 ships would be easier than across 590 armoured vehicles

Type 26 is 5 billion pounds in and one ship fitting out and as in Germany with F125 things can go wrong

Also GDLS is still in the hunt for MRV(P)-2 with Eagle V which has gone quiet for now but this program could follow Ajax in Wales

SD67
Senior Member
Posts: 1127
Joined: 23 Jul 2019, 09:49
United Kingdom

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by SD67 »

Tempest414 wrote: 09 Apr 2023, 10:23
SD67 wrote: 09 Apr 2023, 09:42 On HS2 I’m in total agreement. Should have been build operate transfer with a third party developer taking the risk

On t26 my understanding is payment in the manufacturing phase is on completion of each unit. Exception - GFE procured directly. Ie same deal as Astute.

Bear in mind that a frigate is slightly bigger than an AFV so the challenge of managing that cash flow is far greater.
I would have said managing cash flow across 8 ships would be easier than across 590 armoured vehicles

Type 26 is 5 billion pounds in and one ship fitting out and as in Germany with F125 things can go wrong

Also GDLS is still in the hunt for MRV(P)-2 with Eagle V which has gone quiet for now but this program could follow Ajax in Wales
Type 26 is not 5 billion in. Nowhere near the 3.9 manufacturing phase contract has been disbursed. They are following standard construction industry protocols where cash is disbursed based on % of completion.

This is clearly not the case with Ajax. For reasons best known to the MOD 80% of manufacturing contract value has been physically disbursed in return for 20 finished vehicles and (if you believe GD but there’s been no external audit) around 150 in various states of completion. Ie the equivalent of 100 platforms out of 585. 80% of the cash for 20% of the work and no performance penalty. Nice work if you can get it

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5670
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by Tempest414 »

Is Ajax a 5.5 billion pound fix price contact if it is whats the problem

As for type 26 buy the end of the Batch 1 program it would of cost the UK 4.76 Billion with the 2015 contract for 859 million and the Batch 1 3.9 billion

tomuk
Senior Member
Posts: 1677
Joined: 20 Dec 2017, 20:24
United Kingdom

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by tomuk »

SD67 wrote: 09 Apr 2023, 06:48 A screwdriver plant in wales with no future orders is a distraction IMHO all activity should be concentrated in the hub in the north east to give that ecosystem the best chance of long term survival
RBSL in Telford (Challenger 3 and Boxer assembly) aren't in the North East. WFEL in Stockport building the other half of the Boxers plus bridging specialism isn't in the North East.

SD67
Senior Member
Posts: 1127
Joined: 23 Jul 2019, 09:49
United Kingdom

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by SD67 »

Apologies stand corrected. Both in the industrial heartland, midlands and manchester. Likely surrounded by the supply chain and also by other industrial firms to poach from. My point is "hey ever thought of relocating to merthyr tydfil" is likely not a great draw for the kind of talent that needs to be infused into Ajax.

RunningStrong
Senior Member
Posts: 1375
Joined: 06 May 2015, 20:52

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by RunningStrong »

SD67 wrote: 10 Apr 2023, 08:09 Apologies stand corrected. Both in the industrial heartland, midlands and manchester. Likely surrounded by the supply chain and also by other industrial firms to poach from. My point is "hey ever thought of relocating to merthyr tydfil" is likely not a great draw for the kind of talent that needs to be infused into Ajax.
There was a previous Linde forklift truck workforce at the site, Safran Aircraft seats in Cwmbran, Airbus Defence in Newport, TT Electronics in mountain ash, RAF St Athan maintenance, British Airways maintenance Cardiff airport....

On top of the engineering development talent that came from Bristol area and when BAE lost the Scout SV bid.

mr.fred
Senior Member
Posts: 1487
Joined: 06 May 2015, 22:53
United Kingdom

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by mr.fred »

These users liked the author mr.fred for the post:
Zeno

sol
Member
Posts: 605
Joined: 01 Jul 2021, 09:11
Bosnia & Herzegovina

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by sol »

New video of Ares on Bovington Training Area


RunningStrong
Senior Member
Posts: 1375
Joined: 06 May 2015, 20:52

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by RunningStrong »

sol wrote: 17 May 2023, 18:25 New video of Ares on Bovington Training Area

Not Ares. That's Atlas recovery with the winch and ground anchor.

mr.fred
Senior Member
Posts: 1487
Joined: 06 May 2015, 22:53
United Kingdom

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by mr.fred »

Track noise seems less rattly than previously, and you can hear traffic noise over the engine at points.

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 7314
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
United Kingdom

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by Lord Jim »

I am finding it harder and harder to accept that Ajax is the right platform to conduct the Army's ground recce role It is to big to be used like its predecessor the CVR(T) was and does not carry enough firepower to fight for information. Have it operate with Challenger 3s in a Cavalry role might make more sense, but we are only going to have a very limited number of CA3s.

RunningStrong
Senior Member
Posts: 1375
Joined: 06 May 2015, 20:52

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by RunningStrong »

GD-ELS SBS develop 105mm gun variant of ASCOD.

https://www.edrmagazine.eu/general-dyna ... ry-vehicle

sol
Member
Posts: 605
Joined: 01 Jul 2021, 09:11
Bosnia & Herzegovina

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by sol »

RunningStrong wrote: 18 May 2023, 17:23 GD-ELS SBS develop 105mm gun variant of ASCOD.
That thing looks absolutely massive


Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7410
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by Ron5 »

RunningStrong wrote: 17 May 2023, 19:49
sol wrote: 17 May 2023, 18:25 New video of Ares on Bovington Training Area

Not Ares. That's Atlas recovery with the winch and ground anchor.
There's two Ajax in the video which you probably haven't viewed.

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7410
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by Ron5 »

mr.fred wrote: 17 May 2023, 20:20 Track noise seems less rattly than previously, and you can hear traffic noise over the engine at points.
Very scientific.

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7410
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by Ron5 »

sol wrote: 18 May 2023, 18:43
RunningStrong wrote: 18 May 2023, 17:23 GD-ELS SBS develop 105mm gun variant of ASCOD.
That thing looks absolutely massive

There's mock ups done every few years. This is just the latest. Last was around 5 years ago I think.

RunningStrong
Senior Member
Posts: 1375
Joined: 06 May 2015, 20:52

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by RunningStrong »

Ron5 wrote: 19 May 2023, 13:40 There's two Ajax in the video which you probably haven't viewed.
What's wrong Ronnie?

sol
Member
Posts: 605
Joined: 01 Jul 2021, 09:11
Bosnia & Herzegovina

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by sol »

Training of personnel on the Ajax is resumed
Troops will practise on the initial standard of vehicles – Capability Drop 1 – gaining experience and the skills before they receive the later Capability Drop 3 vehicles, which will be fully deployable.

...

The Army has received 44 Capability Drop 1 vehicles, whilst the Drop 3 is manufactured in Wales.
https://www.forces.net/technology/land- ... d-vehicles

inch
Senior Member
Posts: 1322
Joined: 27 May 2015, 21:35

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by inch »

So it's just down to seat cushions and better ear defenders lmfao,

SD67
Senior Member
Posts: 1127
Joined: 23 Jul 2019, 09:49
United Kingdom

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by SD67 »

The report's out - and it's pretty damning

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... ng-report/

I'm sure those responsible will receive a sternly worded letter before collecting their gold plated pensions.

Still no firm timeline for IOC according to the 10 year equipment plan. Same with Morpheus.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... Review.pdf

SD67
Senior Member
Posts: 1127
Joined: 23 Jul 2019, 09:49
United Kingdom

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by SD67 »

GD refused to take part. So now they have 160 pages of evidence of dysfunctional MOD behavior that they can use as commercial ammunition in the contract dispute.

BB85
Member
Posts: 229
Joined: 09 Sep 2021, 20:17
United Kingdom

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by BB85 »

This part has me in stitches,
He said: “Some individuals showed a clear desire to resolve problems at their level, and not to bother overworked leaders unless strictly necessary.
“This was due in part to the ‘can do’ attitude of those involved and a cultural sense that elevating problems was a sign of failure.”
The entire management of this project has been a farce from start to finish, how the report stopped short of throwing every individual under the bus is beyond me. Any ranks and honours received by individuals while working on this shit show should at the very least be stripped.

Jackstar
Member
Posts: 221
Joined: 19 Jun 2023, 17:02
United Kingdom

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by Jackstar »

Units of the British Field Army have restarted training on the Ajax vehicles this week, highlighting continued progress in the programme. Focused on individual and crew training, this step will mark the restarting of British Army training on the sophisticated vehicles. Conducted in Bovington and Bulford on the initial production standard of Ajax vehicles – Capability Drop 1 – this training will enable troops to learn how to operate the armoured vehicles and use the systems integrated into them. The training will also enable the crew to develop skills and experience with the vehicles before delivery of the later Capability Drop 3 vehicles, which will be fully deployable.

44 vehicles at Capability Drop 1 have been delivered to the British Army, while a busy production line in South Wales manufactures the Capability Drop 3 vehicles that will provide the British Army with a battle-winning edge. Boosting the Prime Minister’s priority to grow the economy, the main Ajax contracts supports a UK-wide supply chain of more than 230 UK-based companies and more than 4,000 jobs throughout the UK, including a large number in South Wales. Delivering a step-change in the surveillance and reconnaissance capability for the Army, with its suite of cutting-edge sensors, enhanced 40mm cannon, modular armour, and improved cross-country range and mobility, the programme will deliver 6 variants, totalling 589 vehicles that will allow the Army to operate in all weathers, 24 hours a day.
https://militaryleak.com/2023/06/15/bri ... cle/?amp=1

Post Reply