Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Contains threads on British Army equipment of the past, present and future.
bobp
Senior Member
Posts: 2684
Joined: 06 May 2015, 07:52
United Kingdom

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by bobp »

sol wrote: 02 Nov 2022, 20:27 Looks like Ajax completed user validation trials, reliability trials are next step.

Hopefully no more major issues... :geek: :crazy:

bobp
Senior Member
Posts: 2684
Joined: 06 May 2015, 07:52
United Kingdom

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by bobp »

sol wrote: 02 Nov 2022, 20:27 Looks like Ajax completed user validation trials, reliability trials are next step.

Hopefully no more major issues... :geek: :crazy:

BB85
Member
Posts: 218
Joined: 09 Sep 2021, 20:17
United Kingdom

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by BB85 »

How long do the reliability trials last? From memory the Warrior trials took close to two years although Covid may have delayed them.
Are we looking at 2024/25 before we get to completion?
Was production halted on the tanks or is GDLS completing the remaining hulls in the hope the QC improvements and upgrades will be sufficient to get Ajax over the line. I can't see the legacy vehicles being able to go beyond 2025 which is why I think there will be a big push to transition as soon as possible.

RunningStrong
Senior Member
Posts: 1304
Joined: 06 May 2015, 20:52

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by RunningStrong »

BB85 wrote: 03 Nov 2022, 20:56 How long do the reliability trials last? From memory the Warrior trials took close to two years although Covid may have delayed them.
Are we looking at 2024/25 before we get to completion?
CR2 took 5 years.

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 7314
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
United Kingdom

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by Lord Jim »

Interesting that there is no mention of the issues that caused the halting of further trials and how they may have been fixed. But it does look like Ajax will remain and enter Army service at some point. I wonder how much of a hit GDUK will have taken over this assuming the MoD stuck to the proviso that no new money would be spent and that all 500+ vehicles were to be delivered under the cost of the contract.

jonas
Senior Member
Posts: 1110
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 19:20
United Kingdom

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by jonas »

More info :- From Gabriele


bobp
Senior Member
Posts: 2684
Joined: 06 May 2015, 07:52
United Kingdom

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by bobp »

Seems like the gun has also been fixed, and it can now fire on the move against a moving target.

RunningStrong
Senior Member
Posts: 1304
Joined: 06 May 2015, 20:52

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by RunningStrong »

bobp wrote: 05 Nov 2022, 10:04 Seems like the gun has also been fixed, and it can now fire on the move against a moving target.
That was always a simple fix. It was simply a difference to the French implementation.

Jdam
Member
Posts: 922
Joined: 09 May 2015, 22:26
United Kingdom

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by Jdam »

Its "completed user validation trials" and "All aspects of these characteristics are fully understood and compliant with the Ajax design and safety requirements" so have they sorted the issues or moved the goal posts?

RunningStrong
Senior Member
Posts: 1304
Joined: 06 May 2015, 20:52

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by RunningStrong »

Jdam wrote: 05 Nov 2022, 15:40 Its "completed user validation trials" and "All aspects of these characteristics are fully understood and compliant with the Ajax design and safety requirements" so have they sorted the issues or moved the goal posts?
How do you move the goalposts when they're written in law?

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 5657
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by SW1 »


jonas
Senior Member
Posts: 1110
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 19:20
United Kingdom

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by jonas »


BB85
Member
Posts: 218
Joined: 09 Sep 2021, 20:17
United Kingdom

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by BB85 »

Sound like it is off the chopping block then. Let's hope these fixes property resolved the issues and not a sticking plaster to prevent the embarrassment of cancelling a £5bn contract after the money has been spent.

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5552
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by Tempest414 »

Well with Ajax going ahead the 3rd Division will have over 1700 new or upgraded vehicles coming

sol
Member
Posts: 528
Joined: 01 Jul 2021, 09:11
Bosnia & Herzegovina

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by sol »

Tempest414 wrote: 23 Dec 2022, 09:20 Well with Ajax going ahead the 3rd Division will have over 1700 new or upgraded vehicles coming
Not sure how did you get to that number. Also lot depends on future unit organisations. With new restructure, the Royal Dragoon Guards, for example, will have less than half number of Ajax, compared to number of Scimitars it operated, with only one cavalry recce squadron, although somewhat bigger than the standard one. What I would really want to know, how many frontline/combat vehicles will it have in the end.

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5552
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by Tempest414 »

Well what we know now is there is funding for 1100 Boxer's , 589 Ajax , 148 Challenger 3 & 61 M270A2 this is without new SP Guns and more of the first 4 which is wanted but not unfunded now most if not all of this must be heading to the heavy units in the 3rd division

sol
Member
Posts: 528
Joined: 01 Jul 2021, 09:11
Bosnia & Herzegovina

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by sol »

Tempest414 wrote: 23 Dec 2022, 11:28 Well what we know now is there is funding for 1100 Boxer's , 589 Ajax , 148 Challenger 3 & 61 M270A2 this is without new SP Guns and more of the first 4 which is wanted but not unfunded now most if not all of this must be heading to the heavy units in the 3rd division
Sorry but that is ridicules. Imagine if someone count all armoured vehicles in the US Army, divide that number with number of armored and mechanized division and claim that is number of vehicles per division. That is false. 3rd Division will have two armoured regiment, with total of 116 tanks, not all 148, just like one third of all M270A2 will be under TA Army and even then, not all of them in combat units but also in training and reserve. Same for Boxer, of which only 623 you can count for now, as that is number ordered so far. Just because there are funds for 1100, it does not mean that Army will end up with that number. Also Boxers will probably go to number of units which would not be directly under 3rd Division. And question is how much Ajax will be there, as I mentioned, RDG will only have some 20 to 24 Ajax (compared to 48 Scimitars) with number of other variants like Ares and other. Question is will other armoured cavalry regiments be structured in the same way. Until there is a full orbat of the Division with new equipment, statements like this are pointless.

With just two armoured brigades, 3rd Division, would actually be weaker than its counterparts in almost all other major NATO country, which usually have three brigades.

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5552
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by Tempest414 »

sol wrote: 23 Dec 2022, 12:29
Tempest414 wrote: 23 Dec 2022, 11:28 Well what we know now is there is funding for 1100 Boxer's , 589 Ajax , 148 Challenger 3 & 61 M270A2 this is without new SP Guns and more of the first 4 which is wanted but not unfunded now most if not all of this must be heading to the heavy units in the 3rd division
Sorry but that is ridicules. Imagine if someone count all armoured vehicles in the US Army, divide that number with number of armored and mechanized division and claim that is number of vehicles per division. That is false. 3rd Division will have two armoured regiment, with total of 116 tanks, not all 148, just like one third of all M270A2 will be under TA Army and even then, not all of them in combat units but also in training and reserve. Same for Boxer, of which only 623 you can count for now, as that is number ordered so far. Just because there are funds for 1100, it does not mean that Army will end up with that number. Also Boxers will probably go to number of units which would not be directly under 3rd Division. And question is how much Ajax will be there, as I mentioned, RDG will only have some 20 to 24 Ajax (compared to 48 Scimitars) with number of other variants like Ares and other. Question is will other armoured cavalry regiments be structured in the same way. Until there is a full orbat of the Division with new equipment, statements like this are pointless.

With just two armoured brigades, 3rd Division, would actually be weaker than its counterparts in almost all other major NATO country, which usually have three brigades.
The last time I looked we only had one Heavy division with 1 x Deep fires BCT and 2 Armoured BCT's so unless you know of any other Medium/ Heavy formations that will have Boxer , Ajax , CH-3 or M270A2 out side of the 3rd Division please let me know if not all these vehicles will end up in the 3rd at some time weather it is with full time or reserve units

You would note that all reserve units for the 3rd are lodged under the 3rd so you can pick eggs out of the basket only to have to put them back

sol
Member
Posts: 528
Joined: 01 Jul 2021, 09:11
Bosnia & Herzegovina

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by sol »

Tempest414 wrote: 23 Dec 2022, 19:54 The last time I looked we only had one Heavy division with 1 x Deep fires BCT and 2 Armoured BCT's so unless you know of any other Medium/ Heavy formations that will have Boxer , Ajax , CH-3 or M270A2 out side of the 3rd Division please let me know if not all these vehicles will end up in the 3rd at some time weather it is with full time or reserve units

You would note that all reserve units for the 3rd are lodged under the 3rd so you can pick eggs out of the basket only to have to put them back
Well then, tell we how all those vehicles will be distributed? How many Ajax will have every armoured cavalry regiment and where all "1100" Boxers will go?

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5552
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by Tempest414 »

sol wrote: 23 Dec 2022, 20:00
Tempest414 wrote: 23 Dec 2022, 19:54 The last time I looked we only had one Heavy division with 1 x Deep fires BCT and 2 Armoured BCT's so unless you know of any other Medium/ Heavy formations that will have Boxer , Ajax , CH-3 or M270A2 out side of the 3rd Division please let me know if not all these vehicles will end up in the 3rd at some time weather it is with full time or reserve units

You would note that all reserve units for the 3rd are lodged under the 3rd so you can pick eggs out of the basket only to have to put them back
Well then, tell we how all those vehicles will be distributed? How many Ajax will have every armoured cavalry regiment and where all "1100" Boxers will go?
This is the point is in it all these Vehicles have been funded but why . Why so many Boxers and wider Ajax family but it could be a good Xmas challenge to place all those vehicles

sol
Member
Posts: 528
Joined: 01 Jul 2021, 09:11
Bosnia & Herzegovina

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by sol »

Tempest414 wrote: 23 Dec 2022, 23:27 This is the point is in it all these Vehicles have been funded but why . Why so many Boxers and wider Ajax family but it could be a good Xmas challenge to place all those vehicles
3rd Div will have as much vehicles as it is defined by its orbat or as much as it could effectively operate. I have no idea how Army will distribute those 500+ Ajax family vehicles. Armoured cavalry regiment currently has some 66 CRV(T) (well Warriors now instead of Scimitars) and some 520 men. So four ACRs in 3rd Division will take just half of all ordered vehicles. Some will go to artillery units, some possibly to two armored regiments, some even might end up with engineers but it is hard to see how all of them would be employed. Same for Boxer. And all those vehicles which are not deployed over various units of 3rd Div, will not go with it, and will not effectively be part of it and so no, 3rd Div will not have all those Ajax and Boxer and other vehicles, it will have as much as it need to have, and its orbat is hardly showing need for all those vehicles. It is like saying that all vehicles located at BATUS were part of 3rd Division, at the time when it become the only UK armoured division just because of it and thus all armoured vehicles are under its command.

BB85
Member
Posts: 218
Joined: 09 Sep 2021, 20:17
United Kingdom

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by BB85 »

Ajax was ordered a decade ago and the army has shrunk considerably since then.
The contractor likely told the MOD they had to place an order for over 500 to get any kind of economies of scale from such a bespoke order. For all of the commentators that crack up about a scout vehicle being confused with an ifv, that's because the hull is based on an ifv packed with additional sensors for the recon role. With Warrior worn out and in need of replacement it seems bonkers that an ifv version was not included in the original order to bring it up to around 750 vehicles with 300 if them being ifvs with space for 6 dismounts.
It also should have been CV90 🤣 but I think everyone is sick of hearing that, let's hope the fixes on Ajax allow it to realise it's potential.
These users liked the author BB85 for the post:
wargame_insomniac

RunningStrong
Senior Member
Posts: 1304
Joined: 06 May 2015, 20:52

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by RunningStrong »

BB85 wrote: 28 Dec 2022, 00:39 Ajax was ordered a decade ago and the army has shrunk considerably since then.
And yet how many CVR(T) and FV432 variants are still in use?
BB85 wrote: 28 Dec 2022, 00:39 For all of the commentators that crack up about a scout vehicle being confused with an ifv, that's because the hull is based on an ifv packed with additional sensors for the recon role.
I guess that makes the Hippo BRV a MBT!
BB85 wrote: 28 Dec 2022, 00:39 With Warrior worn out and in need of replacement it seems bonkers that an ifv version was not included in the original order to bring it up to around 750 vehicles with 300 if them being ifvs with space for 6 dismounts.
You may have heard of this small project called WCSP...
These users liked the author RunningStrong for the post:
Ron5

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5552
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by Tempest414 »

sol wrote: 27 Dec 2022, 15:51
Tempest414 wrote: 23 Dec 2022, 23:27 This is the point is in it all these Vehicles have been funded but why . Why so many Boxers and wider Ajax family but it could be a good Xmas challenge to place all those vehicles
3rd Div will have as much vehicles as it is defined by its orbat or as much as it could effectively operate. I have no idea how Army will distribute those 500+ Ajax family vehicles. Armoured cavalry regiment currently has some 66 CRV(T) (well Warriors now instead of Scimitars) and some 520 men. So four ACRs in 3rd Division will take just half of all ordered vehicles. Some will go to artillery units, some possibly to two armored regiments, some even might end up with engineers but it is hard to see how all of them would be employed. Same for Boxer. And all those vehicles which are not deployed over various units of 3rd Div, will not go with it, and will not effectively be part of it and so no, 3rd Div will not have all those Ajax and Boxer and other vehicles, it will have as much as it need to have, and its orbat is hardly showing need for all those vehicles. It is like saying that all vehicles located at BATUS were part of 3rd Division, at the time when it become the only UK armoured division just because of it and thus all armoured vehicles are under its command.
Yes yes but with 589 Ajax and the Army wanting 1300 Boxer's where is all this kit going as we only have 1 heavy division it can't spill over into the 1st division or can it could the army be looking to make the 1st a Medium-light mechanised division

sol
Member
Posts: 528
Joined: 01 Jul 2021, 09:11
Bosnia & Herzegovina

Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by sol »

Tempest414 wrote: 28 Dec 2022, 09:47 Yes yes but with 589 Ajax and the Army wanting 1300 Boxer's where is all this kit going as we only have 1 heavy division it can't spill over into the 1st division or can it could the army be looking to make the 1st a Medium-light mechanised division
Maybe some will go to ARRC or maybe the Army is silently trying to replace FV432 with Boxer, who knows. But if the Army ends with 1000+ Boxers and only 5 mechanised battalions, it will look ridicules. Even if every armoured vehicle in them is replaced with Boxer, it would still left more than half of total fleet for other things.

Post Reply