Brazil

News and discussion threads on defence in other parts of the world.
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GibMariner
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Re: Brazil

Post by GibMariner »

dmereifield wrote:Last nights episode of "warship" took every opportunity to point out that HMS Ocean is old, hard to maintain and verging on being not got for purpose - hardly the best advertisement for a sale to Brazil....
I think that was directed more at the British audience/taxpayer...

dmereifield
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Re: Brazil

Post by dmereifield »

GibMariner wrote:
dmereifield wrote:Last nights episode of "warship" took every opportunity to point out that HMS Ocean is old, hard to maintain and verging on being not got for purpose - hardly the best advertisement for a sale to Brazil....
I think that was directed more at the British audience/taxpayer...
Yeah I assumed as much, laid it on pretty thick didn't they...

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Re: Brazil

Post by dmereifield »

Defiance wrote:
dmereifield wrote: Don't know, but if they don't buy her what will be the outcome? Binned off next year and sold for scrap, for say £2-3 million?
That's my point, throughout her life she was intended to be used to exhaustion and scrapped. If she's as shagged out as is claimed (which we planned on doing anyway) then nobody will want to buy her regardless.

Why pretend she's in better condition than she is? Brazil has plenty of experience with dragging old equipment into the next century so it's likely they've got a fair idea about what to expect and would offer a price accordingly. It wouldn't be that great of a money maker.

Frankly it's rare I have an emotional attachment to many navy ships, if viable I'd give the thumbs up to gutting her and letting Astute use her for target practice.
We the chatter is that they are talking about something in the ballpark of £80 million, given how strapped the RN seemingly are, its not insignificant if it goes ahead

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Re: Brazil

Post by Defiance »

dmereifield wrote: We the chatter is that they are talking about something in the ballpark of £80 million, given how strapped the RN seemingly are, its not insignificant if it goes ahead
To be fair that seems a fairly decent price, don't get me wrong i'd sooner have it sold than not*, but I'm not holding my breath about it. It'd be interesting to have a dig around to find Brazil's requirements. Considering the budget squeezes and the desire to maintain their strategic programs, if they do pick her up they must thing she's a bargain.

*The sceptic in me is echoing that it'll be used as a way to trim off some of the budget for the next year

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Brazil

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Defiance wrote:It'd be interesting to have a dig around to find Brazil's requirements.
The numbers in their Marine Corps is a good start (even though quite a few are deployed in the Amazonas, rather than just with the navy).
- an interesting factoid: Braziian and Argentinian Marines train jointly
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Brazil

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Jane's, two days ago:
"The Brazilian Navy has assigned an official to the Brazilian Air Force’s Coordinating Committee of the Combat Aircraft Program to monitor the air force’s procurement of 36 Saab F-39 Gripen fighter jets, the navy told Jane’s on 18 July. The move underscores the service’s interest in buying a maritime Gripen.

Saab Aeronautics’ efforts to develop the naval version of the jet, the Gripen M (Maritime) are also being closely watched by the navy.

The service is looking to potentially replace its fleet of AF-1/AF-1A (A-4KU/TA-4KU Skyhawk) fighters, of which nine single-seat AF-1s and three twin-seat AF-1As "
- they are letting go their carrier
- don;t see any surplus ones on the market (there was talk about Kitty Hawk for India a few years back)
- if Brazil does buy HMS Ocean, it will be quite a trick to fly Gripens off her
- and reportedly Saab has redirected their sales efforts to India (where is that joint design office with Brazil that supposedly was being set up on London , with 200 staff?)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Defiance
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Re: Brazil

Post by Defiance »

Digging their heels in like the Argies did, probably see anti-shipping work as part of the Navies job regardless if it's on a carrier or not.

They have aspirations of a carrier, but they've got nucs and new frigates to cough up for before that.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Brazil

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Defiance wrote:probably see anti-shipping work as part of the Navies job
I think the Thais set as a precondition on their Gripen deal that it comes integrated with an anti-ship missile (for which the Swedes in today's world must be grateful for).
- - but I am sure you are right and the preservation of the Brazilian "FAA" is behind this
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

inch
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Re: Brazil

Post by inch »

Its a shame we couldn't interest them in a few type 26 frigates and a redesigned queen Elizabeth class carrier for their Gripen jets if they get them .but as in other countries money and the lack off :-(

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Re: Brazil

Post by Defiance »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Defiance wrote:probably see anti-shipping work as part of the Navies job
I think the Thais set as a precondition on their Gripen deal that it comes integrated with an anti-ship missile (for which the Swedes in today's world must be grateful for).
- - but I am sure you are right and the preservation of the Brazilian "FAA" is behind this
Yeah, they're not going to let it wither on the vine that easily particularly if there's even the slightest political will to not shut the carrier door in the medium/long term.
inch wrote:Its a shame we couldn't interest them in a few type 26 frigates and a redesigned queen Elizabeth class carrier for their Gripen jets if they get them .but as in other countries money and the lack off :-(
I believe they're still looking at Type 26 but they're definitely not as far along as other prospects like Australia or Canada. Their PROSUPER program (5 frigates, some OPVs and a replenishment vessel i think?) is sitting backseat to their sub program.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Brazil

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Defiance wrote:Their PROSUPER program (5 frigates, some OPVs and a replenishment vessel i think?) is sitting backseat to their sub program.
Ii is PROSUR, and here is the Rear Admiral who is in charge of all Navy Prgrms, save for PROSUB that seems to be a national prestige thing; nuclear and all that, setting the priorities:

"the directorate is now in charge of projects to procure Tamandaré class corvettes; escort ships [frigates]; aircraft carriers, and amphibious craft. It is also going to manage the naval force’s current vessels and the upgrade of Niterói-class frigates and Barroso-class corvettes.

This set of projects also includes a submarine modernization project and the responsibility of managing the lifecycle of naval resources and the systems that are going to be acquired in coordination with several other Navy units.

Diálogo: When you refer to ship procurement, does that mean just purchasing ready-made units, or does it also include the idea of developing these resources?

Rear Adm. Petronio: The idea is always to try to build domestically.

Diálogo: Among the naval procurement projects that you have mentioned, which ones are priorities?

Rear Adm. Petronio: The Brazilian Navy has two priorities. The first is our submarine procurement program, which was established before the DGePM [HIS DIRECTORATE] was set up, and therefore is being carried out by another organization, the General Coordination Office of the Nuclear-Powered Submarine Development Program [does our mr. Osborne have the time to be moonlighting down there, with that idea?].

"Our second priority is to acquire four Tamandaré-class corvettes
. As far as that goes, we are now finalizing our first call for bids, in which we lay out some of the project’s features, enabling companies to demonstrate their intention to be involved in this process. Afterward, we will publish another document in which we will open this up so that the marketplace can learn more about the project’s technical specifications. From there, we will really begin the process of negotiating with companies. "

So, basically they have the biggies (AF Gripen and nuclear subs) and all that can fit in now is the corvette purchase (+ modernisation prgrms). Carriers and their escorts have been put on hold; so buying any planes for them is far into the future (does not mean that would not be practising - but not like Russian navy who will keep their RNS Smokie just for that (without modernising it).
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Brazil

Post by Defiance »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Defiance wrote:Their PROSUPER program (5 frigates, some OPVs and a replenishment vessel i think?) is sitting backseat to their sub program.
Ii is PROSUR, and here is the Rear Admiral who is in charge of all Navy Prgrms, save for PROSUB that seems to be a national prestige thing; nuclear and all that, setting the priorities:

No, it's prosuper - Programa de Obtenção de Meios de Superfície. If you Google PROSUPER and Brazil you get lots of references to their surface fleet program, prosur gets you lots about the patient prosecution highway.

Can also link to a Brazil Govt paper about it.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Brazil

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Now I will have to sink real low... and use google translate:
"In the line of strengthening of the Naval Power, some projects were highlighted in the meeting held by the Director of Strategic Management of the Navy, Admiral Roberto Gondim Carneiro da Cunha (photo), such as: Subsea Development Programs (PROSUB) and Construction of Corvettes Class "Barroso". In addition to the 500-ton Patrol Vessel Procurement Programs, Surface Means (PROSUPER), Aeronaut Vessels (PRONAe) and Amphibious Vessels (PRONAnf)."
FROM
"Na linha de fortalecimento do Poder Naval, alguns projetos tiveram destaques na reunião ministrada pelo diretor de Gestão de Programas Estratégicos da Marinha, almirante Roberto Gondim Carneiro da Cunha (foto), como: os Programas de Desenvolvimento de Submarinos (PROSUB) e de Construção de Corvetas Classe “Barroso”. Além dos Programas de Obtenções de Navios-Patrulha de 500 toneladas, de Meios de Superfície (PROSUPER), de Navios-Aeródromos (PRONAe) e de Navios-Anfíbios (PRONAnf)."

Let me explain:
PROSUB is a national prestige project and the Navy will have to say that it is N:o 1 priority

Why do they mention Barroso corvettes next? Because it is an emergency programme ( a bit like those "Make in India" projects it is not going fast): "Due to the fact that the Brazilian economy has eroded in recent years, the defense budget has been severely affected, limited the construction of further Barroso-class corvettes for the foreseeable future. The Brazilian Navy currently faces a problem in that it needs to replace its aged fleet of escorts who are rapidly reaching the end of their useful operational life spans. As such, the government may consider construction of one or two more Barroso-class corvettes with upgraded weapons suite to fill the void. The move would no doubt generate much needed jobs in the ship-building, weapons and technology industry."

PROSUPER is just one of the other four surface navy surface programmes, and just like our Rear Admiral managing the Programmes (NOT this Admiral who is in charge of the Navy's strategy) explained, the last three of the four listed are currently unfunded... starting to sound familiar?
- there is just a little bit more manana feeling about it all (over there) and even more national pride (than over here) involved, Navy is very high prestige and all the sons of the owning classes that do not enter business go into the navy (like my freind, who grew up as the son to their Navy Attache in Washington)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Brazil

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

I thought I carefully explained where your PROSUPER stands in the overall programme structure.

The Prgrm Director's (not that sub-programme's director, mind you) word was not good enough for you, so I had to turn to the Admiral who runs the overall strategy (a bit like our 2nd SL that uses a lot of time getting things agreed with the Gvmnt).
- when was it again that our own GSC was first crayoned? They not even there yet; the navy just says they will need some (when they first get the new carrier... as they did not get enough money to keep the old one).

That was short and sweet?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Defiance
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Re: Brazil

Post by Defiance »

We've had an update on their KC-2 program which had seemingly done dark for a while. The service has told Janes they're going to recieve 4 aircraft in 2021 for COD/AAR duties with first flights in 2019 - it'll be interesting to see how they feed in to the future force structure.

http://www.janes.com/article/72531/braz ... ft-in-2021

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Brazil

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Those are really nice dinky planes, and probably all paid up (to the company in Texas that did the conversion).

11 years, though, from purchase of airframes for conversion to the date in service (and losing the carrier in the intervening period, to 2021!).
- if it is 11 years for a propeller plane, it is more for a (domestically produced) frigate, and this explains why stepping on the gas with the class has by now become an emergency prgrm: "Despite beginning construction in 1994, the vessel was not launched until 2002 and not formally commission until 2008 (as the "Barroso V34").["]

Brazil is a vast country, though, the planned (already funded! But: with export credits the payments are actually spread across a very long period) procurement of fast jets is for a relatively small number and any AAR will be more than welcome.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Brazil

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Sir Humphrey writes on his blog (about UK carriers, but) in the passing:
"
The USN has always been generous to other fixed wing carrier operators – for instance allowing Argentinean and Brazilian jets to practise ‘touch and go’ landings to maintain currency, or working closely with the French when De Gaulle is in refit"

The Brazilians obliged (during the previous administration) by letting the PLAN officers/ crew observe and practise "real" carrier operations on the deck of their small one (you know, not Russian style, but catapults and arrestor gear... more like what their next carrier will be operating)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Defiance
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Re: Brazil

Post by Defiance »

Brazil relies on shipping lots of goods to China to keep their economy (as shakey as it has been recently) ticking over so it's understandable they want to keep them on side.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Brazil

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

I agree with the above, but do you also agree that the "merry go round" as per below was not quite what the Americans helped Brazilian navy to hone their skills for?
ArmChairCivvy wrote:"
The USN has always been generous to other fixed wing carrier operators – for instance allowing Argentinean and Brazilian jets to practise
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Brazil

Post by Frenchie »

The PROSUB program, which aims to equip the Brazilian navy with five new submarines (including a nuclear-powered submarine) built locally, has just passed an essential stage, on February 20, with the assembly of the different sections of the Riachuelo, the first submersible of the Scorpene class, from the French naval builder Naval Group.

Now the construction of this submarine has entered its final phase, which promises to be launched by the end of this year, after Naval Group explains, "the three sections will be junction (welded) ". The delivery of Riachuelo could be made in 2020.

https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.p ... -hall.html

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Re: Brazil

Post by Defiance »

Always fascinated with what Brazil is up to. Looking forward to seeing their full sub fleet hit the water.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Brazil

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Me, too. :) They spend on par with the Oz and S. Korea - and in my opinion get much less for the money. This below expert view might explain why - and for sure, I guess no invasion of their country is imminent, so in the long run...

"Brazil’s aims are much different, says Dr Martin Robson at the Corbett Centre for Maritime Policy Studies, King’s College London, and an expert on Brazil’s naval capabilities. "If you look at the agreements that are in place, it is all about knowledge transfer. Brazil wants to start building its own military capabilities to a similar standard as what western powers build."

"That also links in with certain domestic programmes. The procurement of an SSN links in with their plan for the expansion of their domestic nuclear energy production as well. So they are using defence as a kick start for other projects," Robson explains."
- spent a two-week holiday near their first nuclear power plant
- in those two weeks found out that it had been built exactly on top of a fault line :shock:
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Brazil

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Re: Brazil

Post by SKB »

ex HMS Ocean is to be renamed Atlântico, pennant number A140. Designation: PHM, Porta-Helicópteros Multipropósito

JFoulke
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Re: Brazil

Post by JFoulke »

Hi everybody,
recently i read that the HMS Ocean will be sold to the Bazilian Navy but without the Phalanx CIWS and the radars for such weapons due to USA veto. So I thought, why Brazil would buy such a ship when there are many better alternatives to the Ocean, for example Navatia takes order for the Juan Carlos I class LHD, STX France (recently partially bought by the italian Fincantieri [the majority shareholder]) is taking orders for the Mistral class, even Fincantieri itself is taking orders for a dowgraded version of the 33.000 tons Trieste class.
So why did the Brazilian Government didn't ordered any of these classes? You might say that due to the excessive costs of such ships it would not be possible for them to order one, in 2/3 years the italian Giuseppe Garibaldi will be sold.
Ocean:
Image

Giuseppe Garibaldi
Image

Juan Carlos I
Image

Mistral
Image

Trieste
Image
so i made some research about these two ships and i found out some nice data:
First of all some data about the two ships:
Giuseppe Garibaldi was commissioned in 1985
the Ocean was commissioned in 1995

Giuseppe Garibaldi role: Aircraft carrier, ASW carrier, LHD
Ocean role: LPH (has also some limited ASW capabilites

Garibaldi diplacement: 14.150 tons (after renewed in 2003)
Ocean diplacement: 21.500 tons

Garibaldi length: 180.2 meters
Ocean lenght: 203.4 meters

Garibaldi beam: 33.4 meters
Ocean beam: 35 meters

Top Speed: 30 knots
top speed: 18 knots

Range: 7.000 nm at 20 knots
Range: 6950 nm at 10 knots

Complement:830, 550 crew, 180 airwing, 100 c4 crew
complement: 365, 285 crew, 180 RAF/FAA
here also some data about the sensors of both ships:
sensors on the Garibaldi:
-MM/SPS768 long range radar
-SPS774 early warning radar
-AN/SPS52C early warning E band radar
-SPS702 surface search radar
-2x SPN749 navigation radar
-SPN728 approach radar
-3x RTN30x fire control radar for missiles
-3x RTN20X fire controlradar for guns
- WASS DMS2000 hull sonar
- CMS SODAC3
- FACE standard URN25

sensors on the Ocean
- Type 997 Artisan medium range radar
- Type 1008 navigational radar
- 2x Type 1007 aircraft control radar
- 3x Phalanx Control fire Radar (will be removed due to USA veto)
Electronic warfare and decoys on both ships:
on the garibaldi:
-SLQ732 jamming system
-2x OTO MELARA SCLAR decoy launchers
-AN/SLQ25 NIXIE towed torpedoes decoy

on the Ocean:
-UAT electronic support measures
-DLH decoy launcher
-Surface Ship Torpedo Defence
Armament on both ships:
on the Garibaldi:
-2x Octuple launchers for Aspede SAM
-3x OTO MELARA twin 40L70 DARDO
-2x 324mm triple torpedoes tubes

on the Ocean:
-4x 30mm DS30M
-3x Phalanx CIWS (will be remouved due to USA veto)
aircrafts that is possible to carry and deploy:
the usual load for the Garibaldi when in Aircraft Carrier role:
18 aircrafts, AV8B, SH3D, AW101
the Garibaldi is able also to carry heavier helicopters like the NH-90 or the chinook

the usual load of the Ocean:
18 aircrafts, AW159, Merlin, Apache
the Ocean is capable of carry heavier helicopters like the chinook and is capable of carrying the Harriers in ferry mode, however is nowt capable of deploying it.
So let's see some pro and cons of the Garibaldi:
PRO
-has been renewed in software and structural in 2003 and 2013
-it's a faster ship
-It has longuer range at higher cruise speed
-has a much wider range of sensors
-has much heavier defence (16 sam missiles- 3 twin 40 mm guns- 6 torpedo tubes)
-able to deploy STOVL Jet
- Multirole capabilities

CONS
- it is an older ship compared to the Ocean
-it has less displacement
-It is shorter
-the estimations says that it will be sold for around 150 milions euro (almost 2 times as much of the Ocean)
PRO and CONS of the Ocean:
PRO
- Newer ship
-more displacement
-longer
- cheeper

CONS
-no renewal ever done to it
-it's a slowr ship
-has less range at slower cruise speed
-has less sensors of similar age
-lighter defence
-only able to deploy helicopters
The Garibaldi has proven it's worth in different conflicts like the somalian crisis in 1995 where it served as Aircraft Carrier with only 3 AV8B and at the same time as LHD with onboard 198 parachuters and 320 San Marco Battaliaon soldiers and 30 special forces CONSUBIN soldiers.

During the Kosovo war its harriers has performed 30 sorties in 1999 and in 2001 during the operation Enduring Freedom has performed 288 sorites.

In 2011 during the Libian Crisis the 8 Harriers on board the Garibaldi has done over 1221 hours of flight.


The HMS Ocean has taken major role in the Iraqi War in 2003 and in the 2011 i Libia, unfortunately i haven't foud data on how many hours or sorties has been made by the airfleet of this ship.



Many might say that the Garibaldi by the time it will be sold it will be too old for service.
By 2021, the Garibaldi will be 36 years old, but some of the systems onboard and the software will be 8 years old.
By 2021, the Ocean will be 26 Years old and the systems/sowtwares will be too.

Some might say that 36 years old is way too much, but when the Brazilian navy has bought the Sao Paulo the ship was 40 years old and the majority of the sistems onboard was almost the same, in the 80's it restructurated only in order to accomodate tactical nuclear ordinance by France, however the majority of the systems onboard was left almost the same since the 60's.



On my opinion, the major flaw of the purchase of the Ocean by the Brazilian Navy is that it was thought as a support ship to use together with one of the ships from the Invincible class Carriers.
Instead in the Brazilian navy the Ocean will be the Capital Ship and not a support ship (seeing that it is taking the place of the Sao Paulo), a role that it wasn't sopposed to have as it can be clearly seen by its system suite and its defences.

Istead the Garibaldi, dispite being smaller, is much more capable of taking the role of Capital Ship seeing that it was built to be the Flag Ship of the Italian Navy.





So, at the end of this short display of the capability of these ships, i think that a ship like the Garibaldi would fit much better the role of substitute of the Sao Paulo.

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