Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

For discussions on politics and current events.

Should the UK now withdraw from the Eurovision Song Contest ?!

:wave: Yes!
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61%
:evil: No!
19
39%
 
Total votes: 49

R686
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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by R686 »

sunstersun wrote:
R686 wrote:
sunstersun wrote:Lol, people actually thinking Brexit is a good idea. UK has a lot more power in the EU than out of it.

Pls don't succumb to the dumb disease infecting America. Trump and Brexit are one in the same shoe of train thought.

I find this quite strange in regards to Brexit and the EU, would you be happy for the USA to join the European Union. I know I would not be happy for Australia to join it as it currently stands

But I do understand the benefits of its original concept under the old European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) not so much the ever closer union but the easier trade movements
Ok but we're not European, UK is.

Why would a closer union scare you? Over here in the USA the biggest fear is disunion lol.

Europe is economically the size of USA, but politically probably 1/4th as strong. Why cause it's a bunch of different countries. Imagine how much weaker the USA would be if every state was independent lol.

Geography has nothing to do with it, the EU is made up of individual sovereign’s nations which have passed some of its Parliamentary sovereign powers to a foreign entity

You talk about fear of disunion but you are still one nation under a federal system the same here in Australia. you have as the highest court in the US Supreme Court that then would no longer be the highest court the ECJ would have supreme judiciary powers over courts and parliamentary powers which can overrule national laws or quash Parliament’s abilities to make laws in its own interests

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

R686 wrote: not so much the ever closer union but the easier trade movements
The 'iron triangle' of MBT design modified: trade (not just goods, but also services), capital and people
... all three interconnected

Now that the UK has sent 'East Europeans' home and is under more threat of stagflation than most, because the labour market has become a bottleneck, it also seems that the Mrs May 'swap' of programmers from Delhi for plumbers from Poland did not quite work - bombers from Baghdad (?) instead
- policy making morons, the whole lot (referring to British politicians; anyone sensible to be forced out in 'purges' - as we have seen not so long ago)

Another coffee... might make me more positive (in my comments :) )
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Cooper
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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by Cooper »

sunstersun wrote:Ok but we're not European, UK is.
You're North American, Canadians are also North Americans.

Mexicans are Central Americans, Brazilian's are South Americans.

You're all Americans, in the same way we are all Europeans.

Let me know if you'd accept a Canadian or Brazilian court banning gun ownership in America or deciding American immigration and tax policy.

Otherwise, keep your nonsense to yourself about Brexit.

sunstersun
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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by sunstersun »

Cooper wrote:
sunstersun wrote:Ok but we're not European, UK is.
You're North American, Canadians are also North Americans.

Mexicans are Central Americans, Brazilian's are South Americans.

You're all Americans, in the same way we are all Europeans.

Let me know if you'd accept a Canadian or Brazilian court banning gun ownership in America or deciding American immigration and tax policy.

Otherwise, keep your nonsense to yourself about Brexit.
Ah yes, I'm speaking the Brexit about nonsense. Statistics like Brexit being double the economic hit of Covid mean nothing anymore. #levelupglobalbritain. Similarly Trump launching a coup means nothing. By all means, continue on your dumb nationalistic path. 80% of youth in Britain would like to be in the EU, so the long term return is guaranteed. Can't let fossils deny progress.

Caribbean
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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by Caribbean »

I notice you didn't answer @Cooper's questions, though. Or were you just assuming that, of course, everyone else's legislatures would be subordinate to the USA?
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

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SKB
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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by SKB »

Actually, Mexico is in North America.

R686
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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by R686 »

sunstersun wrote:
Cooper wrote:
sunstersun wrote:Ok but we're not European, UK is.
You're North American, Canadians are also North Americans.

Mexicans are Central Americans, Brazilian's are South Americans.

You're all Americans, in the same way we are all Europeans.

Let me know if you'd accept a Canadian or Brazilian court banning gun ownership in America or deciding American immigration and tax policy.

Otherwise, keep your nonsense to yourself about Brexit.
Ah yes, I'm speaking the Brexit about nonsense. Statistics like Brexit being double the economic hit of Covid mean nothing anymore. #levelupglobalbritain. Similarly Trump launching a coup means nothing. By all means, continue on your dumb nationalistic path. 80% of youth in Britain would like to be in the EU, so the long term return is guaranteed. Can't let fossils deny progress.
You do realise that if the UK were to rejoin then the only real substantial benefits the young see is free movement, everything else would have to fall in line with the EU and its ever closer union, I do not imagine that they will let the UK rejoin with the same conditions no opt outs the end of the £, even Cameron recognized that the EU needed reform. What process have been put in place to make the UK want to ever return that is the real question

zanahoria
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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by zanahoria »

Caribbean wrote: 17 Nov 2021, 15:51 I notice you didn't answer @Cooper's questions, though. Or were you just assuming that, of course, everyone else's legislatures would be subordinate to the USA?
Why would he bother? Cooper’s analogy is preposterous: Portuguese courts don’t make rulings on German law, neither does the Maltese judiciary have any legal authority in deciding how firearms should be controlled in France.

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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by Caribbean »

zanahoria wrote: 21 Nov 2021, 07:36 Why would he bother? Cooper’s analogy is preposterous: Portuguese courts don’t make rulings on German law, neither does the Maltese judiciary have any legal authority in deciding how firearms should be controlled in France.
Sorry, that's just deflection. Even you must see that he was couching the question in a way that would make it obvious to @sunstersun that he was talking about the US Legislature becoming subordinate to another. Whether it was another existing country or some hypothetical pan-American wannabe Union is, frankly, irrelevant - the point is - would he accept the US legislature becoming subordinate to a third party legislature, or did he just assume that all the other legislatures would be subordinate to the US one?
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by sunstersun »

https://www.newstatesman.com/internatio ... ter-brexit

"It wasn’t just bad for Britain, says Australia’s former prime minister – Brexit hurt the liberal democratic order as well."

Same for Trump.

Common sense statement.

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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by sunstersun »

The Brexit Champion ladies and gentleman.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... peech.html

And yeah, getting into a useless discussion of sovereignty and courts isn't my idea of fun.

Speaking of deflection Brexiters like to pound sand when it's mentioned Brexit is twice the hit of Corona.

UK stocks have underperformed their traditional historical average and benchmark peers by 20% since the Brexit vote.


LALALAALALALLALALALLALALALAL courts courts sovereignty to be stupid.

R686
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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by R686 »

sunstersun wrote: 22 Nov 2021, 19:27 https://www.newstatesman.com/internatio ... ter-brexit

"It wasn’t just bad for Britain, says Australia’s former prime minister – Brexit hurt the liberal democratic order as well."

Same for Trump.

Common sense statement.

ER no Krudd is an idiot, he was knifed by his own party for effing sake

Changing the liberal democratic order hell no, the UK is still a member of;
UN Security Council
World Trade Organization
World Health Organization
World Bank and the International Monetary Fund


Moving away from the EU does not effect the democratic order at all

R686
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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by R686 »

sunstersun wrote: 22 Nov 2021, 19:45 The Brexit Champion ladies and gentleman.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... peech.html

And yeah, getting into a useless discussion of sovereignty and courts isn't my idea of fun.

Speaking of deflection Brexiters like to pound sand when it's mentioned Brexit is twice the hit of Corona.

UK stocks have underperformed their traditional historical average and benchmark peers by 20% since the Brexit vote.


LALALAALALALLALALALLALALALAL courts courts sovereignty to be stupid.
So Sovereignty is not an issue for you?

For a majority of leave voters was the the principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK and not in Brussels to which I agree with.

What that means is EU laws had supremacy over UK law, in other words EU law should prevail if it conflicts with UK national law.

In the theoretical American Union would you be happy with the Organization of American States to become a supranational organization which would have supremacy over US law making ability? its easy to answer Yes or No


As for the economy, that is why moving out of post covid economic loses, the IMF forecast the UK to have a bigger growth than the Eurozone economies.

https://facts4eu.org/news/2021_nov_brexit_growth

Ahh that;s right did they say a vote to leave that the UK will enter a rapid recession, and yes it was expected that the UK will perform lower during its exist phase until the UK moves on from the EU

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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by sunstersun »

As for the economy, that is why moving out of post covid economic loses, the IMF forecast the UK to have a bigger growth than the Eurozone economies.

Good for the UK. Could have been much better without this nonsense. No it will just underperform to its projected baseline before leaving the EU. 20% lower actually. Just like all the statistics have shown and predicted lmao. There's no amount of economic gaslighting that you can do to change the facts the UK is a lot poorer, will be a lot poorer due to Brexit.


So Sovereignty is not an issue for you?

No it's really not? I don't think Sovereignty was a political issue until the last 10 years.

Sure, why not. Trumpets and Republicans are so bad are so rn, I trust Canada and Mexico more rn. If I were British, I'd trust the EU courts 10000000 million more times than the current Tory Corruption bs. The EU courts help prevent Poland and Hungary from going full craazy.

So actually yeah, sovereignty is an issue for me, just the opposite of your primative neanderthal thinking. We are social creatures that work better together in a group.

After all, AUKUS is good as a group. Sovereignty not an issue for the Aussies?


Man Brexit people are truly not in this reality. Nothing compared to Trump zealots of course, but the next closest thing.

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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by sunstersun »

Also have you seen the current US SCOTUS? The less supremacy they have the better.

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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by sunstersun »

USA "sovereignty" led to Iraq. I hope for future military decisions the EU is much more involved.

R686
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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by R686 »

sunstersun wrote: Good for the UK. Could have been much better without this nonsense. No it will just underperform to its projected baseline before leaving the EU. 20% lower actually. Just like all the statistics have shown and predicted lmao. There's no amount of economic gaslighting that you can do to change the facts the UK is a lot poorer, will be a lot poorer due to Brexit.
No one would ever really know if that is correct or not, yes sure whilst negotiations were going on there was a bit of uncertainty, I tend to think it was more of a blip in the greater scheme of things as the UK economy was tied to the EU, as the UK economy decouples from the EU it will enjoy more freedoms to do things more in its interests than 27 other countries
sunstersun wrote: No it's really not? I don't think Sovereignty was a political issue until the last 10 years.
Sovereignty was always a political issue, which it was Ted Heath was fundamentally dishonest when joining the EEC. There was to be a referendum before actually joining in which he knew that a majority of the electorate was not in favour of joining the EEC, and why he subsequently signed then lead a dishonest campaign after the fact.

Before the 1970 general election which made him Prime Minister, Edward Heath declared that;
“It would be wrong if any Government contemplating membership of the European Community were to take this step without `the full-hearted consent of Parliament and people'.

in June 1971, a White Paper had been sent to every home in the UK, promising that, “there is no question of Britain losing essential sovereignty."

In 1973 Ted Heath He said:
“There are some in this country who fear that, in going into Europe, we shall in some way sacrifice independence and sovereignty. These fears, I need hardly say, are completely unjustified.

It wasn’t until the Wilson Government consent to a referendum in 1975 to whether the UK should remain or leave the EEC, but because of the dishonest nature in the governments representations of what it meant to be is was said to be just a “Common Market for trade”

The loss of national sovereignty was confirmed by Judge Bruce Morgan on April 9, 2001. He said that, when the UK joined the Common Market in the 1970s, parliament and the British people
“quite voluntarily surrendered the once seemingly immortal concept of the sovereignty of parliament and legislative freedom”.

The Werner report goes on to state that this loss of sovereignty to which the UK could lose in which would ultimately leave (EEC) member states with somewhat less power “than the autonomy enjoyed by the states of the USA

sunstersun wrote: Sure, why not. Trumpets and Republicans are so bad are so rn, I trust Canada and Mexico more rn. If I were British, I'd trust the EU courts 10000000 million more times than the current Tory Corruption bs. The EU courts help prevent Poland and Hungary from going full craazy.
So actually yeah, sovereignty is an issue for me, just the opposite of your primative neanderthal thinking. We are social creatures that work better together in a group.
Wow, you have no trust in your own national institutions. I feel very said for you
You said your dislike for Trump and Republicans, but whom voted them in, who voted him out?
Even PM Cameron at the time said of his policies "If you don't like me, I won't be here forever." Its your democratic right to vote for your president and your member of congress
Who elects the President of the European Commission, certainly not the general voting public!!

Its the un-elected members of the European Commission will commonly propose new EU laws for the European parliament to vote on.

Are you still happy for that to happen if the Organization of American States where to control US legislative ideals?
sunstersun wrote: After all, AUKUS is good as a group. Sovereignty not an issue for the Aussies?
Its because each nation is a sovereign nation in its own right, that it happened at all, and sovereignty is a very big issue for Australians, why do you think the US has had a very small presence in Australia over the years, precisely because of sovereignty issues.

You are aware that the only reason why AUKUS happened at all was for the fact that the UK now has a foreign policy independent of the EU and France was doing everything thing in its power to stop AUKUS in its tracks. AUKUS could not have happened if the UK was still a member of the EU or as the EU tried to tie the UK to a formal foreign policy and security treaty within the TCA

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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by jedibeeftrix »

sunstersun wrote: 23 Nov 2021, 17:34 Good for the UK. Could have been much better without this nonsense.
So actually yeah, sovereignty is an issue for me, just the opposite of your primative neanderthal thinking.
You seem really invested in this:

Do you feel somehow compelled to go on a crusade to rescue the UK from our poor decisions, now that you have rescued the US from trump?

Where next, screaming at Norwegians for not "getting with the programme"...

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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by jonas »

Another case of Brexit not working :lol: Click on for full article

https://www.mtdmfg.com/news/germanys-zf ... in-the-uk/

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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by Cooper »

jedibeeftrix wrote: 24 Nov 2021, 09:12
sunstersun wrote: 23 Nov 2021, 17:34 Good for the UK. Could have been much better without this nonsense.
So actually yeah, sovereignty is an issue for me, just the opposite of your primative neanderthal thinking.
You seem really invested in this:

Do you feel somehow compelled to go on a crusade to rescue the UK from our poor decisions, now that you have rescued the US from trump?

Where next, screaming at Norwegians for not "getting with the programme"...
I doubt he's even really American..having a US flag in in his profile, doesn't mean anything. Probably just some trolling Eurotrash on the Continent, still bitter at having his beloved federalist dream shattered.

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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by sunstersun »

lol this reminds me of conversations i have about trump.

"you do realize everyone else in the world agrees with democrats that trump is crazy insane/incompetent."

"dur"

"here's all the logical reasons why brexit is a terrible idea." - everyone

"dur"

And yeah, people would like to see Brexit undone. It probably shall.

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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by sunstersun »

[/quote]

I doubt he's even really American..having a US flag in in his profile, doesn't mean anything. Probably just some trolling Eurotrash on the Continent, still bitter at having his beloved federalist dream shattered.
[/quote]

Ah yes, anyone who disagrees with me is a plant. It's like Republicans claiming non existing democrat fraud to cover up their actual fraud.

https://gyazo.com/296f7f5add2c59e37e4bf279c342247e

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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by R686 »

sunstersun wrote: 25 Nov 2021, 18:07 lol this reminds me of conversations i have about trump.

"you do realize everyone else in the world agrees with democrats that trump is crazy insane/incompetent."

"dur"

"here's all the logical reasons why brexit is a terrible idea." - everyone

"dur"

And yeah, people would like to see Brexit undone. It probably shall.
Seems like a real intelligent conversation :roll: :lol:

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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by sunstersun »

People are oddly proud about being impervious to reason and facts.

R686
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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by R686 »

sunstersun wrote: 26 Nov 2021, 04:51 People are oddly proud about being impervious to reason and facts.
Seems to me you are looking at a your own reflection in the mirror

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