Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

For discussions on politics and current events.

Should the UK now withdraw from the Eurovision Song Contest ?!

:wave: Yes!
30
61%
:evil: No!
19
39%
 
Total votes: 49

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SKB
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Re: UK and the European Union. In or Out?

Post by SKB »

Little J wrote:If there was a third option, stay but trade only, which I believe was the original vote back in the 70's. I'd be fine with that, it's the extra stuff that was added without a vote, that I'm not happy with.
That's called EFTA - European Free Trade Association. Ironically, the UK was a founding member of it, before leaving EFTA to join the the "European Common Market" (wasn't called the "European Union" back then).

EFTA's current members are Norway, Liechtenstein, Iceland and Switzerland. (all are non EU members)
http://www.efta.int/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_ ... ssociation

RetroSicotte
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Re: UK and the European Union. In or Out?

Post by RetroSicotte »

Cooper wrote:
RetroSicotte wrote: I just got done with years of dread for the Union breaking apart. Leaving the EU wouldn't just fracture our links with our closest partners, it would also inevitably lead to another Scotland fiasco. I'm shocked that people promoting "leave" never seem to realise that by leaving they could be pushing Scotland away, something I saw them all too much resisting.
If the SNP don't use a UK exit as an excuse for another referendum, its only a matter of them using another one. Besides would the SNP risk another referendum based on a EU exit unless there was a very big margin in favour of Scotland staying in, say 65-35? what if the poll analysis showed the margin was less than 10%, would that really be a big enough margin to risk it?
The SNP will risk it again and again and again until they get it and then after that deny it forever. To them and their supporters (half the damn country) they missed out by a whisker and are just waiting for the "age demographic" to push for it in the long term. They run off of voting bases that are either ignorant, nationalistic morons, single issue voters and easily gullible young 20's types who think the world is just a single vote off of being fixed forever. Their following isn't just popular, it's fanatical. Most of them don't even understand the issues that they "care" about and treat every word from the SNPs mouth as fixed truth.

I've seen Yes voters banding together to believe an incident in Motherwell where an SNP supporter suddenly screamed "HE INSULTED ME" at a Tory MP, and then the entire crowd turned against the man instantly without ever having heard the man speak. When I asked those I saw supporting that for their evidence, they said "Well SNP are more truthworthy so..."

I've seen people at work who still believe this "£100b" pricetag nonsense for Trident renewal and who firmly believe we are "creating even more destructive nuclear warheads to threaten the world with into obeying us." I've seen SNP voters screaming that we need to stop invading Iraq and leave ISIS in the peace "that it just wants away from imperialistic west that keeps attacking it.". A huge portion of the voterbase went for the SNP and Yes because they don't like England in football for gods sake. When they are shown raw facts from independant sources with video evidence, they just dismiss it.

The SNP is fully aware of the absolute airheadedness of its voterbase, and their tactic has been and still will be to tell them what they want to hear and whip them up into a social media frenzy. Only people who were in Scotland, in a major area leading up to the IndyRef could possibly understand how cult like the SNP is and grasp the full depths that they are willing to go to get as many votes as possible because SNP wants this to become a perpetual issue to try and rally more behind it. To permit them to keep going at it is only going to benefit their cause, and Sturgeon has laid down an EU exit as the cornerstone to trigger the next one in pretty plain language that has been picked up by the SNP social media masses already.

It will happen if Scotland leaves the EU, and given Scotland is the most Pro-EU country in the UK on both sides of Yes or No, I don't think it takes a genius to work out what's gonna happen then.

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Pseudo
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Re: RE: Re: UK and the European Union. In or Out?

Post by Pseudo »

RetroSicotte wrote:A huge portion of the voterbase went for the SNP and Yes because they don't like England in football for gods sake.
Oddly enough, I said at the time and continue to think that if we had nationally integrated football league's and a British football team rather than the four national sides and separate leagues independence wouldn't be nearly the issue it is and support for it wouldn't get much above 30%.

RetroSicotte
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Re: UK and the European Union. In or Out?

Post by RetroSicotte »

Might actually win something too. ;)

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SKB
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Re: UK and the European Union. In or Out?

Post by SKB »

*post deleted*

~UNiOnJaCk~
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Re: RE: Re: UK and the European Union. In or Out?

Post by ~UNiOnJaCk~ »

Pseudo wrote:
RetroSicotte wrote:A huge portion of the voterbase went for the SNP and Yes because they don't like England in football for gods sake.
Oddly enough, I said at the time and continue to think that if we had nationally integrated football league's and a British football team rather than the four national sides and separate leagues independence wouldn't be nearly the issue it is and support for it wouldn't get much above 30%.
Why not take it further and actually work on encouraging the same principle but of the nation as a whole! Encourage people's sentiments to move away from four distinct nations within an increasingly fragile union in favour of correctly perceiving the nation being the Union itself - as it always should have been.

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Pseudo
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: UK and the European Union. In or Out?

Post by Pseudo »

~UNiOnJaCk~ wrote:Why not take it further and actually work on encouraging the same principle but of the nation as a whole! Encourage people's sentiments to move away from four distinct nations within an increasingly fragile union in favour of correctly perceiving the nation being the Union itself - as it always should have been.
I'm not sure what you'd suggest to take it further, but integrated national sports teams and league's are all about uniting the nation, the current separations only serve to entrench division and enmity. With integrated league's there wouldn't be reason for the Scots to hate the English, so much as there would be for them to hate Man United, Man City, Arsenal and Chelsea, and be that's a hatred I'm sure that we can all get behind. :D

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Tiny Toy
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Re: UK and the European Union. In or Out?

Post by Tiny Toy »

SKB wrote:That's called EFTA - European Free Trade Association. Ironically, the UK was a founding member of it, before leaving EFTA to join the the "European Common Market" (wasn't called the "European Union" back then).

EFTA's current members are Norway, Liechtenstein, Iceland and Switzerland. (all are non EU members)
Of these, one is geopolitically and economically insignificant. The others all have massive export surpluses in comparison to the UK, and can therefore afford the unfavourable trade rates for non-EU members.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: UK and the European Union. In or Out?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Tiny,

Don't you know that Putin keeps his 70bn in Liechtenstein; not in the EU (i.e with those pesky types that have gone along with the US sanctions).
- how many times their GDP is that?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Tiny Toy
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Re: UK and the European Union. In or Out?

Post by Tiny Toy »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Don't you know that Putin keeps his 70bn in Liechtenstein; not in the EU (i.e with those pesky types that have gone along with the US sanctions).
I didn't, but I don't see how relevant it is, unless you're hoping to persuade him to move his account to the City of London, which doesn't strike me as particularly likely.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: UK and the European Union. In or Out?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Let me think...
- Geneva; no... the mafioso thing ran for 30 years but now they report to the good old USA
- City (and the BOTs)... sorry
- NYC... ehhm
- Sydney/ Tokyo/ Singapore? Bitter rivals to be the king of that time zone, but sadly, aligned
- HK... no financial reporting, no extradition treaty... may be the new patron of the Church in Mother Russia will find this (part of Red China) to be the next stop?

Any other ideas?

Or shall we discuss, rather, how solid are the sanctions, going forward?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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SKB
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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by SKB »

Don't forget to vote in the poll (since ended) at the top of the webpage. You may change your vote at any time.

bobp
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Re: UK and the European Union. In or Out?

Post by bobp »

That's cool I have changed my vote

IrishT
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Re: UK and the European Union. In or Out?

Post by IrishT »

marktigger wrote:Yes and watching the retoric being ramping up in the North at present. Don't think its anything to do with Austerity in Northern Ireland its ahead of Easter Rising 100 and sein feins further ambitions.
It's not even just Stormont where people are twitchy. Our own Government is worried about a Brexit, and has said the UK leaving the EU could threaten the GFA/peace process. Our economy is inextricably linked to yours. One can only hope if you do leave the EU, we set up our own free trade agreement.
marktigger wrote:Closer links between the Irish Republic and the UK would be interesting especially stuff that brings the countries closer together and counter acts the arguments. Maybe the Irish Government and people reaching out to the Unionist community.
Sinn Fein has been growing in popularity here as a protest party. God help us if they get into power, they'll run our economy into the ground and then blame you for it :| Also, as much as the Government might want to reach out to the Unionists, it's quite clear they don't want to talk to us, when they burn our flags (or the Ivory Coast ones, whichever one they can get their hands on) every couple of months.

We're definitely heading for an interesting time.

Wrekin762
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Re: UK and the European Union. In or Out?

Post by Wrekin762 »

May as well jump ship if this is the cost of renegotiation:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... ation.html

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Re: UK and the European Union. In or Out?

Post by seaspear »

What are likely to be the minimal acceptable changes made to the E.U for the U.K to stay ?

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Pseudo
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Re: RE: Re: UK and the European Union. In or Out?

Post by Pseudo »

seaspear wrote:What are likely to be the minimal acceptable changes made to the E.U for the U.K to stay ?
It could very well be none whatsoever once the economic fear mongering kicks in to gear.

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Re: UK and the European Union. In or Out?

Post by marktigger »

I think the Germans are going to change their minds on open borders given the mess they are starting to realise they have created.

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Re: Brexit - The UK's European Union Referendum

Post by arfah »

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Pseudo
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Re: UK and the European Union. In or Out?

Post by Pseudo »

arfah wrote:
marktigger wrote:I think the Germans are going to change their minds on open borders given the mess they are starting to realise they have created.
Hopefully, not before the Calais migrants have had a chance to relocate.
I can't see the camp at Calais lasting much more than another two or three months and I don't think that the EU will be able to avoid coming up with a solution once winter starts to set in. I don't think they'll be able to withstand the popular backlash from the footage of the corpses of frozen migrants on European soil. Though I certainly hope that they can come up with a solution before that, it's not unusual the full horror of a situation to have to reveal itself before the EU will take decisive action.

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Re: UK and the European Union. In or Out?

Post by marktigger »

I think the french authorities will start to crack do on the economic migrants first.

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Re: UK and the European Union. In or Out?

Post by SKB »

I love how the "Stay In the EU" total in the thread poll is now decreasing. :lol: :twisted:

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Re: UK and the European Union. In or Out?

Post by RetroSicotte »

I know, that's what's most worrying.

It's almost like people want the UK to lose Scotland these days. If anyone cared even a little about the Union, they would be going 200% against leaving.

The Union is vastly more important than Europe. Whether you like the EU or not, it's impossible to deny that consideration for the Union must come first in the time in which it is more fragile than in any point of history before.

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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by SKB »

Groups have been formed to persuade the British public vote in the EU Referendum. They are:

(1) Vote Leave LINK: http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/
Vote Leave comprises a cross-party group of MPs and peers from the Conservatives and Labour, and UKIP's only MP Douglas Carswell.
It is being run by Taxpayers' Alliance campaign group founder Matthew Elliot, who organised the successful 'No2AV' campaign in the referendum on Westminster's voting system, and Dominic Cummings, a former special adviser to Conservative cabinet minister Michael Gove.
It has the backing of three existing Eurosceptic groups: Conservatives for Britain; Labour Leave and Business for Britain, and is being funded by party donors. LINK: http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/

(2) Leave.EU LINK: https://leave.eu/en/our-campaign
Leave.EU was formerly called The Know and rebranded when an amended referendum question was proposed. Founded by UKIP donor Arron Banks, it has been described by UKIP leader Nigel Farage as an "umbrella group" of anti-EU campaigners.
It describes itself as "Britain's fastest-growing grassroots organisation" and claims to have gained 175,000 members since The Know was launched in August.

(3) Britain Stronger in Europe LINK: no site yet found... :roll:
Lord Rose, former boss of Marks & Spencers was announced on Friday as the chairman of the cross-party campaign to stay in the EU. Rose, 66, will cite CBI estimates that the benefits of trade, investment, jobs and lower prices mean membership to the EU is worth £3,000 per year on average to every UK household.

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Re: UK and the European Union. In or Out?

Post by SKB »

David Cameron sends UK's official letter for EU reforms to the EU President, Donald Tusk.
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